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Project The Yamaha R4 (Glacially Slow Project)

Discussion in 'Other Projects - Other Bikes (non 250's)' started by maelstrom, Dec 20, 2014.

  1. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    One of my customers with a 3TJ in UK mentioned that I should not have polished the valve as the black finish is an important coating. As best I can tell it is commonly called black nitride and nitride is a surface treatment not a coating. In any case, in hindsight probably best to leave the black stuff, might be useful.
    Here is some light reading:
    Many Japanese OEMs use a black nitride coating on the valves instead of chrome plating. The nitride coating, which is applied in a salt bath treatment, protects the stems against scuffing and wear. Nitriding creates a thinner but harder surface layer that also does an excellent job of reducing wear.
    https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/11/understanding-valve-design-and-alloys/
    and
    https://hefusa.net/salt_bath_nitriding_liquid_nitriding/overview.html
    [​IMG]
    and
    https://www.shootingillustrated.com...the-pros-and-cons-of-nitride-barrel-finishes/

    in any case I am a but suspect about Yamaha FZ inlet valves.
     
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  2. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Looks like you may have only polished off the black free iron from the outside according to that barrel nitriding article

    From that chart you would have had to remove 30 approximately micron total to remove the alloying completely - I reckon you'd measure that amount of material removal
     
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  3. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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  4. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Good article. When I build my R4-SC, I will definitely buy some Moldstar seats and send my head off to those blokes in Eastern Europe. Just need some valves to go with it. Oh, and a wheelbarrow full of money. :)
     
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  5. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I haven't gotten as far as pricing the moldstar, but consider that I have seen somewhere on the net prices for ready to fit seats that weren't eye popping by any means

    That actual manufacturer sells the bar stock directly - you've got the lathe...seats and guides...AWW C'MON

    Valves for the 400 should be easy - so many potential candidates out there within that stem diameter range
     
  6. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Haha, too funny. It is not making the seats that is difficult, it is fitting them and cutting the seats. You need a Serdi or a Peterson. I did consider it but I couldn't find any blanks for the 400 inlet valves. In any case I think this project is starting to take a little bit too long right now.

    G-Force have done a lot of that work by the way https://mngforce.typepad.com/
     
  7. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Seen seat installation done is some Pro Shop videos on youtube using differential heating/cooling, seats in the freezer or dry ice and cylinder head in the oven - they had a tool with a concentric guide pin that went straight down the valve guide - copper drift hammer - in they went and it wasn't a slugfest

    https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2003/04/valve-seat-installation-procedures/

    Removal has a lot of options also

    I think you already have the technology to make the necessary bits
     
  8. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Yes, fitting the seats is not the issue. They need to be machined, hence the Serdi or Peterson.
     
  9. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    There has to be something available locally - looking at all of the hop-up parts sites throughout South East Asia - those guys will race anything

    I was even thinking of seeing what the commonalities were between the 250/4 valve seat geometries and getting a tungsten cutting blade made for inlets and exhausts - from this thread

    https://www.2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/fuel-injected-turbo-fzr250-half.10957/page-3
     
  10. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    You have to get the seats out first and it is not a job to be taken lightly. Locally pffft, I would not waste a second of my time thinking about it. I would send my head to Marex Motors in Poland. In any case it is not happening so let's stop talking about it.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  11. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK, I shall avoid being irksome any further and taunt you no more
     
  12. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Insert stream of bad words. **** **** **** **** etc
    Muppet.jpg
    A quick check shows this valve to be 0.4mm shorter on the tip than another. This is a 1.30 shim and the thinnest listed for the 3TJ is 1.20. I should have done all this with the head off. OEM valves are no longer available so Chinese AHL it is and worst case will be some, if not all, new seats.:headbang:
     
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  13. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Idle hands are the devil's workshop & all that:
    So contemplating what lies ahead, and my mind wanders to my old R5 idea. Which means drop the entire top end off a YZF600 Thundercat onto it. Now those parts are readily available and quite cheap, except for the shipping, but there are always problems. That starts with the fact that the 400 stroke is 9.1mm shorter than the 600.
    1/ The 400 gudgeon holes are 15 and need to be 17. I don't know the length of the 600 rods but they are a direct fit onto the 400 crank.
    2/ The compression ratio will drop from the 600's 12:1 to 10:1. Hey, good for fitting a Rotrex C15 supercharger but not so good otherwise. By the way, the 600 has a nice combustion chamber and piston crown, Nikasil bore too.
    3/ The clutch might complain
    4/ The Thundercat uses 36mm CV carbs. My 32mm FCR's, which are actually 33 on the engine side of the throat, might also be a stretch. However, I could sell them to pay for all of this.
    5/ Custom rods are expensive and used 600 rods are cheap as chips.

    Shortening the block won't be too hard as it is one piece with Nikasil bores. If I use the 600 rods the rod stroke ratio will probably be quite high, so good for high rpm. Combined with the 600 head on a 500 engine means that the thing would be capable of filling the cylinders at those high rpm. But that doesn't interest me too much as it is not going on the track. The Thundercat is rated for 100hp so I guess the R5 might be good for 80.

    I will blame @kiffsta for this because of Binky vids :)
     
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    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  14. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Why blame @kiffsta when clearly Binky is at fault - it should be an #IBlameBinky hashtag, it's responsible for all manner of unhinged plans and projects worldwide no doubt - they've had millions of views

    That's a interesting recipe, I've seen others which take FZR600 barrels and pistons on the 400 crank and other variations in between and outside of that.

    If you can fit the 62mm bores of the YZF600 on the spacing of the 400 crank, these pistons might be suitable
    https://www.daytonaindonesia.com/product-detail/ninja-250-62-hi-comp-/30

    Then add the YZF600 cylinder head to top it all off

    YZF600's aren't in abundance here, but if you need any parts just holler if you can find them

    Remember you're not crazy if it can be done, being sensible just doesn't come into it, at any stage
     
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  15. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    They actually made an FZR500 which was sold in Europe somewhere. It was probably also a 600 block on 400 crank. I will have to find some more info on it. The early model FZR600's (59 x 54.8) were basically a stroked FZR400 (56 x 40.5). Whereas, the late model FZR600 (4JH commonly called the Foxeye) is the same config as the YZF including Nikasil bores (62 x 49.6). Apparently it all drops straight onto the 400 cases. Most people put the 600 crank in also, but that needs a custom seal on the alternator side. I need to know rod lengths. Can buy rods on eBay for as little as $40 for the set.
    Note that the Thundercat & Foxeye use the same base gasket as my 400 engine.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  16. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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  17. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Anywho, as they say in Binky world, I have bought a set of AHL valves. If they lunch my engine then R5 it will be. I have to finish printing all the manifolds for customers before I rip the head off and do an autopsy, so for now, just wait. I do a lot of that. I'm very good at it. In the meantime I will keep my eyes peeled for YZF600 bits in Thailand. It worked last time, I bagged a set of FCR's at a great price.
     
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  18. 660

    660 Active Member

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    I'm sorry to read about your valves, I hope the Chinese ones work ok. Thundercat top end will work for you, I have Thundercat cams in my new FZR400 build. I do have a complete Thundercat top end (less cams) if it interests you. I like Ruckusman's idea with Ninja250 pistons! they fit the Thundercat barrels (a bit loose). I have them in my Superbike (the late Jeff Short helped me with this application) and it makes big power. If the sky is the limit I have unused bored out & replated Thundercat barrels with a complete new ZX6 piston kit to fit...
     
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  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    We seriously need to hear all about this, we've been having difficulties getting various measurements, like thundercat rod length for starters

    Which ZXR pistons did you go for, I know that there are some years that they shared pistons and rods with the ZZR600 which had 64mm bore
     
  20. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    You are so close to stating it , binky the next project , I’m thinking Thai style drag racing

    B141888D-B296-4348-A650-629E827690E8.jpeg
     
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