1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Info VTR 250 vs VT Spada

Discussion in 'Honda 250cc Twins' started by Gizziracer, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    273
    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Location:
    Sydney
    My Bike:
    Honda vt 250 spada
    Just serviced the new vtr carbs and brakes.. My#%^* goodness there is a terrible difference in servicibility between these 2 models! The Spada carbs can be on the workbench in around 10 mins.conversly the bloody coils have to be removed, breathers, idle air control valve removed.on the vtr.before you even get to the carbs. I pity anyone who ever has to re jet one of these engineers nightmares.. does any one know what the air control valve is for? Is that to suck all the horse power out that vtrs loose to the Spada? Will it burst into flames or refuse to proceed if I remove it altogether.. seems like so much unnecessary claptrappery

    image.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,504
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Albury 2641
    My Bike:
    1987 Yamaha SRX250, Honda 1974 SL125 K1, 2022 Triumph Tiger Sport 660
    Probably emissions control.. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    3,980
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Gardener
    Location:
    Tasmania
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Spada, VT250F & ZX2R
    That's sounds like a good task...find out if you can get more power out of that engine by removing factory/emission crap and improving fueling etc. Seems odd that it's so down on power compared to the Spada. Are you planning to fix and flip the VTR or keep it?
     
  4. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    273
    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Location:
    Sydney
    My Bike:
    Honda vt 250 spada
    Just quoting the claimed factory hp exaggerations, VT 250 spada 40 hp,,,, 2005 vtr 250 32.. I actually like vtrs,,,, once i get used to the awful mechanical layout I will ride it for a while then probably sell it... but you never know,, Have to build it to a non written off frame before I can proceed, hopefully begin by the end of this week.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    Likes Received:
    1,101
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Yeppoon
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 speed bike, Yamaha YZ/WR250F, Kawasaki ZX2R, Honda VTR250, DR350 (x 3.5), a couple of prototypes and whatever else.
    I've done carbs on a Spada, but I have a VTR to look forward to doing carbs on.. I liked the VTR, hence buying this one. 5 speed is better than the constant shifting of gears in a 6 speed (like my current ZXR with standard gearing).
     
  6. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    273
    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Location:
    Sydney
    My Bike:
    Honda vt 250 spada
    The VTR its really not that different but it just becomes really obvious how much cost cutting and lack of serviceability resulted in the change from VT spada model to the vtr ducati copy. For a company like Honda, which started out producing numerous shameless copies but became a highly innovative design leader, to go back to producing an over priced yet bargain basement copy that the VTR most certainly is, is a curious corporate decision. I'm sure the Honda share holders aren't too worried given the vtr's success in the market place but reputational damage is sometimes difficult to measure. Lucky they have MR Marquez on the payroll to balance things out. Even removing/replacing the rear brake master cylinder cap is way more fiddly. Increasing the likely hood of the owner accidently wiping brake fluid onto the frame rail. Just so many backward steps on this model but I guess many owners don't go much past checking the tyre pressure in their own maintenance practice so poor servicibility is sort of irrelevant as they zoom around imagining they are on a Ducati. I vastly prefer the 6 speed gearbox to the 5, and again, which gearbox would have been cheaper to produce?
     
  7. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,574
    Likes Received:
    1,101
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Yeppoon
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 speed bike, Yamaha YZ/WR250F, Kawasaki ZX2R, Honda VTR250, DR350 (x 3.5), a couple of prototypes and whatever else.
    Well if they are copying a Ducati, then it should awful to work on, like a Ducati!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    273
    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Location:
    Sydney
    My Bike:
    Honda vt 250 spada
    There can be absolutely no argument Honda copied Ducati in the design and styling of the vtr.. They even went so far as to copy the lack of a tacho that the first ducati monster also missed out on. No taco on a big thumping v twin could be understood to a degree but on a small, high reving motor like the VTR its inexcusable. Both bikes were bargain basemant specials, Ducati just changed the bodywork and footpegs/handlebars from their sports bikes which was a stroke of genius to cash in on the street fighter fashion emerging in the early 90s and some suggest this saved Ducati from bankcrupcy. No shame in pinching stuff from your own models but Honda just looked at the Ducati Monster and said, "We'll have some of that" . I'm wondering if any money changed hands under the table as it was such a blatant rip off Ducati surely would have been able to claim some type of copyright infringement. I cant help seeing this as behavior more attune with a chinese motorcycle startup business than a manufacturer with such a proud history as Honda. I really still have difficulty comprehending how Honda came to this decision and what battles happened in Honda management at the time but as I said previously I'm sure the Honda share holders weren't too concerned.
     
  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    5,102
    Likes Received:
    3,472
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    Well Ducati never made a 250 variant so Honda did it for them. I think the VTR is a great looking bike and I couldn't care less that it is a copy of a monster. I wish Honda still made the VTR and I would have bought one last week instead of the toy Yamaha XSR155.
     
    • Bummer Bummer x 1
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Well-Known Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    514
    Trophy Points:
    543
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tamworth NSW
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR 250 3LN3, Triumph Sprint ST 955i
    I did test ride a VTR250 for Linkin once and found it very boring to ride (must be used to 4 cyl sports bikes and the like) - but that's just me. I told him not to bother, then he bought the ZXR250 at the time. I also enjoyed riding his Kawasaki Ninja more...
     
  11. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    273
    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Location:
    Sydney
    My Bike:
    Honda vt 250 spada
    Yes, Ducati created an aesthetical masterpiece when they designed the monster and the VTR :)
    I wouldn't have bought one for the princely sum of $120 if I didn't like them:) Its just that working on it is bringing back all the stuff I'd forgotten from the last 2 I have restored. Virtually every mechanical task is more difficult than the equivalent task on the spada and I'm Guessing the spadas VT 250 predecessors. And much of it just smacks of rushing a design to market with too little thought and planning and really underdone mechanical design. I'd love to find out the time difference between when ducati first exhibited the Monster and the release of Hondas VTR, Weeks, Months, definitely not long enough
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    5,102
    Likes Received:
    3,472
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    5 years, the first Monster in 1993. What I find surprising is that manufacturers keep producing hideous bags of shite even after decades of proof that the public doesn't want them. Hopefully I will live long enough to see the end of the 'Transformer Toy' look.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    3,980
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Gardener
    Location:
    Tasmania
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Spada, VT250F & ZX2R
    Well, this is an interesting thread. Some mention has been made of the VTR, its predecessor the Spada and the bike that started it all, the VT250F. So, if I may...

    The 1982 VT250F was a "wow" bike when released. It wasn't a copy of any other bike. It was very original. Honda chose to install a hydraulic clutch (a first for this capacity of bike), a 6-speed gearbox, oil/air shocks, inboard front disc and a monoshock rear swingarm. And powered the bike with a water-cooled, 4-stroke, DOHC, high-revving narrow-width 90-degree v-twin making about 35hp at 11,000rpm. The whole thing weighs about 145kg and it wouldn't scare any 2-stroke from the same time. Now, most people know I'm a fan of this bike, but you may not know how much of a pig I think they are to work on. The list of "WTF were they thinking?" moments is long and sometimes unusual.

    The VT250F went through a few generational changes before moving to the Spada (what a frame) and then eventually to the VTR. Given how good (and IMO beautiful) the Spada frame was, why would Honda go to a trellis unit? Answer...because it looked like a little Ducati. I guess sometimes form wins over function and vice versa.

    My point is that Ducati made a beautiful bike, so why wouldn't Honda make a small capacity clone of it? As @maelstrom said, Ducati weren't going to make a 250cc Ducati, so why should small capacity bike riders miss out? @Gizziracer mentioned the Honda shareholders and that's the point. The VTR was a hideously expensive 250 when it was sold here. It has taken ages for the second hand market to make this bike "affordable". It's very rare for humans to be original, so copying is always going to be a thing. When Suzuki brought out the Gladius, journos were calling it a Ducati clone (which it certainly looked like to me). Imitation is the highest form of flattery, so Ducati should be very proud.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  14. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    5,102
    Likes Received:
    3,472
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    I like the Gladius too but I would fit the round headlight from the SV650, which also is a classic IMHO.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    5,102
    Likes Received:
    3,472
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  16. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    3,980
    Likes Received:
    2,208
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Gardener
    Location:
    Tasmania
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Spada, VT250F & ZX2R
    My last "off topic" post... I promise! Speaking of copying style and trends...

    A mate was at a Shannons Auction recently and sent me this pic. He's not a motorcycle guy, but knows enough to be dangerous... asked me if this was a Ducati with Indian stickers on it?

    Shannons Indian.JPG
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    5,102
    Likes Received:
    3,472
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    I would not want to ride pillion on that stupid seat, but who cares right, so long as it is fashionable.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    273
    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Location:
    Sydney
    My Bike:
    Honda vt 250 spada
    If I had to ride a contemporary American bike I could live with that Indian. The thing about them is they exist without much of the bad boy, bullshit image that permeates their competition. Probably much to their eternal frustration.The old Harley 850 sportsters were also not bad bikes that did nothing particularly well but we’re an ok package. Just so, so expensive for such an ordinary bike.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. smoKEMup

    smoKEMup Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Joined:
    May 26, 2020
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    My Bike:
    VT250 VT250F VT250F2 VT250FE VT250L VTR250 VTR250efi
    Ripoff of a Kawasaki ER6N - Identical in fact. Indian should be taken to the cleaners for that blatant copy.

    To legitimize this post: VT vs VTR:
    VT250 were a master piece of complex high volume production - liquid cooled, 8 valve, twin cam, V twin, hydraulic clutch, inboard disc :confused: vs the bikes of the time that had what - 'self mixing lubrication' and an exhaust valve?? Yeah Yeah one for each port I know! While the VTR250 reflects cost cutting in the closing years of the V Twins life I must say that the VTR250efi is a humdinger of a package (Outstanding even but only if you weigh <65Kg). It really only needs 5 gears as its a very torquey 250 and perfect for the smaller riders among us or newbies to the fun of m/cycling - pity they only learn to ride them and not learn to maintain them.
     
  20. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    2,870
    Trophy Points:
    943
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2014
    Location:
    Sydney NSW
    My Bike:
    FZR250R 3LN6
    I see VTR250's on a regular basis at work, some are better maintained than others. The airbox and carburettor removal procedure leaves a lot to be desired, but once you've done a few you become competent at it.

    I've even had the pleasure of working on the EFI model VTR250.

    I would have either a carby or EFI one as a bike any day of the week.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page