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Project 3LN1 Restoration

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by camarda, Mar 22, 2020.

  1. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    FZR250R 3LN1 carby's have a 16mm float height, 3LN3 is 14.7mm
    And yeah clamping the carbys' fuel bowl onto the carby base help's to hold the float better
     
  2. cornulio81

    cornulio81 Active Member

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    Nice to know!
    is there also any measure for the BDS26 carbs for the 2KR model? (I know, offtopic)
     
  3. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Yeah there sort of is, the service manual show's how to measure it on the outside on the carby, so the fuel level, but i would need to find it for you

    edit 17.5mm to 19.5mm fuel level on the outside measured from a certain point on the carby body
    Still looking for pic's
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  4. cornulio81

    cornulio81 Active Member

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    Hi, thanks a lot. But my thought was to measure the the hight of the float body 90° to the housing (not the fuel level it self)
    This is direct and save a lot of time. I wouldn't imagine how the people at Mikuni or Yamaha were screwed, if they every carb have to check like in the Service Manual:D
     
  5. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Yes but we don't have a float height measurement in any of the texts, the only way we have derived a measurement for float height is by cross referencing it with the fuel level and making a calculation.
    Fuel level is the important measurement for these carbs
     
  6. cornulio81

    cornulio81 Active Member

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    Of course, a good method to conclude the float high from the fuel level. Saves a lot of time (and nerves):thumb_ups:
     
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  7. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Because they are downdraft carbs, the emulsion tube is laying down and the fuel level is going to drastically affect the mixture compared to a vertical carb. This is why fuel level is used and is so important for downdraft carbs. I put the blue line in the image to show the emulsion tube axis.
    EmulsionAxis.jpg
    This was proven by @my67xr who did extensive testing of fuel levels and how it affected the performance of his FZR250. As I am prone to harping on about, it is important to understand why something is the way it is. For example, an owner drops the forks through the triple clamps and adds ride height to the rear because he believes that he will corner faster etc. Well undoubtedly this will affect the fuel level in the emulsion tube. Even if he uses the correct factory fuel level setting it will still be wrong because his carbs are lying down more than the OEM position. Maybe it won't be enough to adversely affect the running, but most likely it will. If it does then the owner spends forever trying to fix his flat spot etc. He will move his needles and change main jets ad nauseum, never knowing where the problem came from in the first place.
     
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  8. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Ok, so, @ruckusman , for some reason the keyster float needles won’t fit down the float seat hole, they just stop on a lip at the top, will investigate this further once I sort out a level surface for the bike to measure the fuel levels. I got my #100 Mikuni main jet so that’s all sorted. I have however encountered an issue regarding the jet needles. It seems all of them are 5CT7 needles and the clip is on the top position on all of them. Luckily, in the box of parts there seems to be 2 5CT9 needles however they have some wear on the tip of them, see pic:
    image.jpg
    As this is also my first time adjusting needle clip positions I’m assuming 3rd Notch means 3 down from the top however does this mean the brown plastic ring goes below the clip on the 3rd position or are we setting them so the brown plastic ring is sitting on the 3rd position, thanks heaps.
    Example of what I currently assume 3rd position means.
    image.jpg
     
  9. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK, so needle clip position 3 is in the middle, you don't take the plastic spacer into account for that.

    Second thing, the carbs can run with any combination of 5CT7 - all four, 5CT7 - two, 5CT9 - two, or all four 5CT9.
    The final option isn't a factory supplied option.

    For your circumstance, you have two 5CT7's - they go on the outer two carbs, and you've got two 5CT9's, they go on the two inside carbs

    All of those obviously have the plastic shim underneath, and none of them have a shim washer

    Don't worry about that small mark near the needle tip - those needles look to be in very good condition
     
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  10. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Ok, I have installed the carbs, checked the fuel levels and they are all around 10.5mm so that’s good. The idle changes itself randomly however and there’s still some white smoke coming out of the exhaust when you shine a flashlight on it.( might be water leak on head gasket or something). Any checks I should do or something I should video for you guys to see, I let the engine come up to temperature and I revved it to 15k rpm as a quick test and it sounds ok. When releasing the throttle if the idle is set lower and was fine before revving, it can sometimes drop to 0 rpm and then cut out. Or, if I set it higher and it also seems ok, it will increase revs after letting off the throttle. As shown in video below:



    The white smoke is in the video below:




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    @my67xr is your man for getting idle sorted, however I will say that if it's dropping to the point of cutting out, then it's too rich on the mixture screws

    From a very soggy memory, 2 1/2 turns out from lightly seated

    Someone please confirm or correct me
     
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  12. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Ok cheers, I’ll turn them down half a turn and suss tomorrow. Is the white smoke ok? Also does the engine sound fine, I wouldn’t have the carbs this perfect if it wasn’t for you so I appreciate it heaps. Just worried of any other internal issues, piston rings, leaking head gasket, valve clearances. Don’t want to blow it up haha.
     
  13. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    You posted whilst I was typing, that looks not too bad

    If you do have a head gasket leak, start from cold with the radiator cap removed and see if you get bubbles as it warms up, beware it could blow a lot out if there is a badly leaking head gasket
     
  14. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    That's not much white smoke, it could be just condensation that has built up inside the exhaust being heated and boiling off - compare many cars starting in the mornings - you'll see the same phenomena until everything is up to operating temperature
     
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  15. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    I initially thought it was condensation however it remained consistent even after the engine came up to temperature. Also, I might mention that on 1 rev there was some black smoke will attach video, only once though. The rest were just light white smoke. I’m going to finish rebuilding the brakes tomorrow and will sort out a roadworthy so I can test it out on the road soon. Will also need to change the tyres.

     
  16. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    The hand brake bleeder also arrived and so did the master cylinder and lines you sent me, once again thanks for that.
     
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  17. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    BTW, did the float level @ 14.7mm yield the correct fuel level of 10.5mm for you

    I reckon where you've got that bike to, how it's running now is better than it's been in quite some considerable time, revving whilst in neutral is no true test, however I don't think it's going to need much tuning one it's pass roadworthy and been ridden a bit
     
  18. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    Yep, 14.7mm results in a 10.5mm float height. I will need to draw a proper 10.5 mm mark on my fuel level measuring device and double check them all again just to make sure and change over to the keyster needles. I do also wonder however whether the float bowl pushes the float seat further down once installed and hence the actual float height is technically lower than 14.7, I guess this is largely irrelevant though if the fuel level is correct.

    I agree, thanks to you and everyone on this forum the carbs are almost perfect and the bike is finally seeing proper fueling requirements for the first time in years. Now, with this knowledge, I can hope to help others on this forum get to the same point as I have learnt so much thanks to you guys.

    Lets just hope it isn’t worn somewhere else and blows up on my first ride. I can already see a coolant leak I’ll need to fix. I don’t know how many years it has been since this bike has been ridden as the previous owner bought it with the ceased brakes, put the incorrectly set up 3LN3 carbs on, started the bike for the first time in ages, realised he didn’t have enough time and sold it to me.

    If only I didn’t work full time and do full time uni at the same time, I would already have it all done by now. Not far to go though, any tire recommendations btw ahah.
     
  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    You can turn the float bowls around and tighten them down when checking float level, however if you haven't lifted the needle seat valves out they usually stay put.

    Glad you are keen to share your knowledge, these little 250's are a peak in engineering and performance for 250/4's that hasn't been attained again since.

    They just need to be setup and maintained with care and precision.

    Well you have valve clearances to check and potentially adjust - just need a good set of clearance/feeler gauges and potentially an external micrometer for any that are not legible.
    They do have the thickness laser etched into them, however if one has been installed with the etched measurement sid down onto the valve tip, then it may be illegible.
    Doesn't take much time, I'd say you check them early one morning, disassemble if necessary, check what you've got, calculate what you need, order them, then reassemble when they arrive next day or the day after. Easy job.

    @my67xr @GreyImport & @Linkin should all be great sources for tyre recommendations, I know linkin has tried a few different tyres on 250's, works in the business and so has a great access to experience and knowledge of others
     
  20. camarda

    camarda Active Member

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    This is exactly why I wanted one of these so badly, they are peak Japanese engineering and the inline 4 revving so balanced and high is so awesome especially with carbs. I really just want to restore the whole thing bit by bit so I can see how awesomely complex it is on the inside. The crazy thing to think about it is that the engine is tuned like a race bike but came with warranty from the factory as a race 250 for the road.

    I have an r6 rear shock on the way in the mail so I’ll need to enquire with you guys about dog bone length changes soon.

    Will get on valve clearances in the next few days, thanks for those tips, will take them into account. Hopefully I don’t ruin the rocker cover gasket but I’ll put some gasket glue.

    On another note, I’m trying to source another 3LN1 right now for parts or a potential second project. I’m going to try test my skills and develop a good intake manifold for a fuel injected version of this thing if I have time. It would be interesting to see what can be done with an ecu and some small injectors.
     
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