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Project Tony's ZXR250s

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by TonyZXR, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info guys .

    Meanwhile... so the whole of the rear suspension has been removed. I ended up replacing a few bearings and sleeves that weren't in great condition into the swing arm and link. From my spares I've ended up with a good set. Also installed new wheel bearings in the front, rear and sprocket hub. The cush drive unfortunately looks pretty rough so I'll need to source a brand new one. And finally I couldn't help myself so I repaired the big dent in the swingarm and painted it with some left over silver I had from when I painted the other bike.
    20230521_212420.jpg

    The chain slider was pretty worn out . I had one that was better but still not great.
    20230521_212348.jpg

    20230514_195104.jpg

    Back together with the new wheels and tyres. I went for a 150/60/18 in the rear this time. I also rectified the bent front rotors. The right side had 9 thou runout and the left side had 16 thou . They're now have about 4 thou which is well within spec.

    20230520_150150.jpg

    20230521_212301.jpg
    First ride went alright but I think I'm going to retrim the seat again. It's too slippery and firm .
     

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  2. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Well I took the bike for a ride the other day and I ended up walking home :(

    I was stuck in traffic for a good 30 min. But it seems that the reg/rectifier stops charging the battery when it gets hot as I later proved with a heatgun . So I guess it's junk.

    I was thinkin in the future maybe I could mount one of these ontop of it assuming there's enough clearance . Screenshot_20230531-154801_Chrome.jpg I think I'll buy a Shindengen sh775 to replace the sh555 that's faulty.
     
  3. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Buy a 2nd hand FH020AA from a wrecked bike, they are very common on Euro bikes now and even the latest Jappers, and a connector a kit. I bought one from a wrecked tiger 1050 to use on my R6 at the time, worked a treat.

    The series reg/rec's (SH775 and SH847) will run the stators a lot cooler but they are more expensive. The MOSFET style are already more efficient and generate less heat than the old shunt type regulators anyway.

    A 12v fan is definitely not a bad idea. Wire it in to the thermoswitch so it comes on when the radiator fan comes on.
     
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  4. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    ... and move it to somewhere sensible rather than its own little oven.
     
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  5. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I did think of the fh020aa but I've read that type shorts the stator to regulate and that tends to put strain on the windings. I've got spare stators but would prefer not to change it if it fails :confused:

    That would be good . Mount it back where the ignition unit is . Someone in the engineering team must've been smoking some good **** when they decided wedge it between the hot engine and fuel tank :idk:
     
  6. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Must have been a common thought process back in the day. The Honda VT250F has its RR wedged behind the rear exhaust header with no cooling whatsoever; Almost designed to fail. At least Kawasaki gave us some fancy air tubes to blow cold air onto the RR; doesn't work too well in traffic though. Little fan sounds like a good idea. Hooked to the Thermo as @Linkin suggested. I used to run an on/off switch so I could turn on the radiator fan in traffic well before the thermo thought it was a good idea.

    RR Cooler.jpg
     
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  7. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Jesus near the exhaust... , the irony is the A models air tubes seems to blow basically right onto the reg/rec meanwhile on the C it doesn't. It points too low .

    I also have a bypass switch for the thermo fan . The factory one kicks in wayyyy too late . The thing start running like a pig well before the fan kicks in . I should try and find an off the shelf one with a lower temperature.

    Also couldn't help myself and bought one of these
    20230531_201701.jpg
     
  8. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    What you've got with the permanent magnet stator is an excess of voltage over a certain RPM.
    They are three phase AC [3 windings], less bumpy than your normal AC from the powerpoint.
    Once it's scrubbed down to the target voltage via the regulation stage, it then goes through rectification so that all peaks are positive.
    The battery acts as ballast, a kind of reservoir very much like a capacitor, so that in the grand scheme of things, the very slightly bumpy 3 phase output is absorbed by the battery which has large amp hour capacity and the system is presented with a relatively stable voltage.

    Regulator/rectifiers are different to an alternator which uses voltage to vary the strength of the magnetic field [no permanent magnets] and thus vary the voltage output [regulation stage], a stator just generates excess and disposes of that excess via the reg/rectifier.

    Shunt types reg/recs use SCR's [silicon contolled rectifiers - not much different from incandescent light dimmers] and generates heat putting the voltage overhead to ground, I also think SCR's run hotter than MOSFETS - this may be the source much of the heat generation in that type of reg/rectifier.

    MOSFETs are metal oxide field effect transistors, more efficient and less heat than an SCR. They also put the excess voltage to ground in a controlled manner [resistance - not just a zero ohms shortcircuit], generating less heat in the process.

    A light bulb for example is just a resistance heater which gets sufficiently hot to generate light.

    Remember all excess voltage generated by the stator is put to ground, neither REG/REC is a straight short circuit, that is what would destroy a stator and as it so happens a reg/rectifier going bunk can also burn out a stator, depending on it's mode of failure.
    Another mode of failure can result in unregulated voltage going into the charge system, cooked battery, blown instruments and so forth.

    A good working, well designed and fit for purpose, shunt or mosfet type reg/rectifier should not place any more or less stress on a stator than any other.

    Most electronics can withstand heat up to a certain point, however too much for too long can signficantly shorten the lifespan or cause sudden failure, I think this is where the MOSFET's win out.

    Sorry for the long ramble, the shunt -v- mosfet types got me thinking.
     
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  9. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I've never had a C model road bike, so that's good to know those tubes are useless/pointless. That explanation that @ruckusman wrote about RR types is good to know. I am wondering if running a lithium battery in an old bike will cause issues in the charging circuit due to lithium batteries requiring specific chargers. I think I saw somewhere that there are 'lithium-specific' RR available. Maybe @ruckusman can start a thread to discuss this? I believe a lot of guys are now going away from Chemical and Matt batteries and installing Lithium for weight saving and better CC performance.

    @TonyZXR where did you get the sticker from?
     
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  10. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I did do some research into this, which was on the back of the excellent work that @my67xr did on the various reg/rectifiers available.

    https://www.2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/shindengen-regulator-rectifiers.10005/

    To my mind, developments mean that you've now got available two types of Lithium cells - LiPo which are the ones which can go bang and LiFePO4 which are safe and don't explode.

    There's two types of battery classification in respect of two criteria.
    Energy density and Power density.
    Imagine two batteries, both 12v and say 10Ah, those two batteries aren't necessarily equivalent according to both criteria.
    Both have the same voltage, both have the same amount of energy available, say 1 amp for 10 hours.

    BUT, take for example, one is for starting an engine and the other is for deep cycle use.
    Where they differ is that the engine starting one can deliver say 200 amps for 10 seconds bursts, whereas if you attempt that with deep cycle battery, you will kill it, they've got much lower maximum peak current capacity.

    Power is volts x amps.

    So although their energy density is the same, their power density differs.

    Why am i prattling one about that, well...

    LiPO
    Quick explanation, as you'd all likely know, Lithium burns on exposure to H20, it can also get bugger hot.

    LiPO means lithium polymer, in the polymers there are combustible, volatile hydrocarbons, if you've ever had a LiPo cell punctured and it didn't go bang, there's a smell - it's the hydrocarbons [think exotic paint thinner odour] I've smelt it and lived to tel the tale.
    The generated heat from discharge can be sufficient to ignite the polymer hydrocarbons and then it cascades.

    Anyway, it used to be the case that LiPO had bugger big current capacity in comparison to LiFePO4, I've got 30c+ plus batteries for drones - that's @12v - 360 watts possible power delivery, some will sustain even that and not cook.

    LiFEPO4 by comparison used to have much lower power density in comparison - I did go into it on the back of that excellent thread on reg/rectifiers by @my67xr
    https://www.2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/lithium-batteries-lifepo4-diy.9981/

    Sufficient to say that due to whatever magic is occurring in the manufacturing facilities, BOTH energy and power density continues to improve with both types of lithium battery.

    I suspect much of that is down to improved refining techniques - I do recall the legendary Dr Karl answering a question on NiMH batteries with suspect [too high] capacity claims, which he deunked by stating that to refine the metals to that degree of purity for that claimed capacity was simply cost prohibitive.

    Anyway, all credit to the cleva fellas making the improvements.

    Trick is finding a reg/rectifier which charges to an appropriate voltage for the cell types in use - 4S [4 in series] of LiFEPo4 @ 3.6v per cell gives a target output of 14.4v or just below.

    I might check back on hobbyking for sufficient capacity LiFEPO4 cells and aliexpress for a suitable BMS at some stage.

    BTW, as for specific chargers, I've got 'hobby' multi battery type chargers that do a great job, they have to otherwise every RC hobbyist the world over would be hollering about dead batteries from the chargers.

    I've also used one as a rejuvinator [digital power mode, HiMH mode, then Lead acid mode] for a lead acid car battery that has just been left to go a bit too low - took 3 days of gentle charging but that battery is still just fine.
     
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  11. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Reg/rects for lithium batteries are available now.
     
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  12. neoncrypnid

    neoncrypnid Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    For what it's worth, I used a Shindengen MOSFET reg/rec for 10,000km with a lithium battery. Standard wiring. No problems to report at all

    Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk
     
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  13. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    So much valuable information thanks @ruckusman . I guess I'll pick up a used fh020aa.

    Bought it on ebay from a guy in Spain, it's not a perfect reproduction but eh the bike isn't perfect so I guess it fits. There is a company that makes perfect reproductions of it . I can find the link if you're interested.

    Supposedly the sticker was originally given out by the dealerships to people who bought a US spec ZXR750 in 1991 . Seeing as my bike is a 91 model I thought it might be a nice touch.
     
  14. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I do tend to go on [y'all thinking does he evah!], but re-reading, 'I say stuff' and give reasons 'why I say the stuff that I say', with luck it's helpful

    I've never been fond of just banging out opinions without reasons
     
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  15. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    So today is muffler restoration Sunday :D

    Backstory is I have a few oem mufflers laying around but the best one is on the other bike . With that in mind I don't have another one in good condition and let's just say as I get older the noisy aftermarket one is getting a bit tiring .

    So I figured it's time to restore one of the many .

    A fair few years ago I had one that someone had put a stainless steel cover over . Once I removed the cover I saw that it was completely crushed and badly corroded underneath so I thought I may aswell cut it up and have a look what's inside. After that bit of research I kept the tip and binned the rest .

    Fast forward a few years I ended up with another muffler with a yet another stainless steel cover .... and this one someone cut the tip off.... and ground down the welds on the barrel completely, and snapped off bolt in it too . And with the stainless steel cover removed it was badly corroded but luckily the barrel wasn't damaged.

    20230611_130800.jpg

    First step was straightening the crooked cut tip then I measured and cut the spare and welded it on .

    20230611_192417.jpg

    (It's been a while since I've TIG welded and it's old contaminated metal so go easy on me pleasee)

    20230611_201827.jpg

    Looks great after a file and sanding. Next thing I welded up the heavy grazing on the bracket.

    20230611_204507.jpg

    20230611_212442.jpg

    Also came up great . Last step was to try and make a nice visual weld on the bottom of he barrel.

    20230611_212433.jpg

    I also sanded all the corrosion off with 80 grit on the air sander.

    20230611_212454.jpg

    Just needs a polish and it's finished. Pretty happy with it so far.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2023
  16. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    And it's all polished up and bolted on. 20230612_174755.jpg

    Now for the interesting part. I've got 3 mufflers total and they're all different in some way. Some have different part numbers on them and the actual tip length and the tube inside is very short on one and almost all the way to the end of the tip on the other . Does anyone know which muffler goes with which bike? Can't seem to find part numbers on diagrams either. Maybe people can have a look at their own bike and see which one they have assuming it hasn't been changed

    This is the first one :
    20230612_222946.jpg 20230612_223110.jpg 20230612_222917.jpg

    It's part number is KHIK278 which is stamped towards the end near the tip, It has a 90mm long tip and the inner tube goes almost to the end of the tip

    This is the next one . It is also a KHIK278 but oddly this has an 80mm tip , and a short inner tube.
    20230612_222955.jpg 20230612_223002.jpg 20230612_223131.jpg

    And lastly the one I just restored . It's stamped KHIK224 and it's located at the front of the muffler. It has a 80mm tip and a short inner tube aswell

    20230612_223031.jpg
     
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  17. Yetiburger

    Yetiburger Well-Known Member

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    I went through about 3 lithium batteries in my FZR before I found out the old shunt-type reg/rec was destroying them. From what I understand lithium batteries need a steadier charge with no spikes in voltage. I installed a mosfet reg/rec, which has worked perfectly ever since. The lithium battery I put in is about a quarter of the size of the standard battery with more CCA.
     
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  18. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Yes, I think that's the secret to running lithium batteries in older bikes. @neoncrypnid mentioned his lithium battery was fine with a MOSFET R/R too. I had a lithium battery that we put in the Chief's (@GreyImport) ZXR250C drag bike and I seem to recall the battery died pretty quickly. My ZXR250A drag bike runs a lithium battery, but it doesn't run a charging system, so I've never had an issue.

    Okay @TonyZXR you can have your thread back. Do either of those KHI mufflers, with the different length centres and different length end pieces, sound any different?
     
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  19. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Yep the one with the short centre sounds a bit louder and deeper , I'm guessing the tip would make it echo . Also got this in the mail.
    20230613_202437.jpg
    The brochure is for the later models but gotta take what you can get. Funny how it says that the air tubes are actually designed to blow cool air over the cylinder head . Also bought this a while ago but I don't think I showed it.

    20230613_233034.jpg

    20230613_233057.jpg

    I love how it says when starting the motorcycle don't rev it for no reason because " it waste fuel and annoying"
     

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  20. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Thanks for the info on the mufflers. Cool pickup on the merch and the manuals. Are they owners manuals? The Japanese are a polite and socially responsible people; "it waste fuel and annoying" sounds like something they would recommend/suggest.
     
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