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Discussion 2-stroke revival?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by ShaneP, Apr 15, 2016.

  1. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if this topic has been raised, but do you think there would be support if a manufacturer was to produce a 250 2-stroke road bike? KTM do a registerable dirtbike 200, 250 and 300cc, previously did 125, 360/380/400, too), but would there be support for a supersport bike? Or has the reliable 4-strokes, LAMS category and ridiculously quick big bikes (600+cc supersport) put the final nail in the coffin? If they did make a 2 banger, where would it fit in the market? Would it need to be cheaper than the 250 4-strokes or could you call it a race bike and ask more? Would people buy it at such prices? Or do the current 2-stroke buyers want the nostalgia?
     
  2. Damus

    Damus She is a BEAST and riding it is comparable to sex Dirty Wheel Club

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    I haven't had much experience with 2 strokes, but the what I have felt was pretty disappointing. They have an evil all or nothing power band and I'm not convinced that a 2 stroke could ever be as reliable as a 4.
    That being said I like the idea of better power to weight, if you could get a 150cc 2 stroke engine to out perform the mc14e 4 stroke engine id be down! =p
     
  3. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    pollution laws are too strict, so we will never see them making 2 stroke road bikes again.

    they are now trying to ban the manufacture of 2 strokes outboards , the last world climate change summit put the nail in the coffin for 2 strokes.

    it would be cool if one of the jap 4 did a 2 stroke 250cc race bike with fuel injection, it could resurrect 250cc 2 stroke racing, that would be an interesting business case to read.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  4. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    As kiffsta says they won't allow it due to pollution, even if they were fuel injected. Honda even had a prototype.
     
  5. KICKERMAN360

    KICKERMAN360 Well-Known Member

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    2 strokes will never be on road bikes. Pollution with fuel injection is give or take as bad as 4 stroke bikes generally spew out just as harmful gases (NOX gas is one). The problem 2 strokes have always had was unburnt fuel passing to the exhaust meaning lower fuelling economy and every kind of pollution imaginable. Oil injection and fuel injection make 2 strokes quite clean burning.

    2 strokes are more difficult to maintain, less hardy, generally need more recurring maintenance (although perhaps less expensive) and can unsettle many riders, especially over 125cc.

    The reason why 2 strokes stay competitive in enduro is because they're less prone to serious damage, easier to start, lighter, quite powerful and still have modern chassis'. The 300cc 2 stroke is pretty much the ultimate engine for enduro. 125s are as popular as ever for motocross, proving to be the hardest bike to ride fast.

    Honda have had FI for 2 strokes since the mid-90s. It's obvious they won't want to return. I have seen report of Suzuki thinking about it. Athena have developed fuel injection systems with impressive results. There was a CR500 engine in a YZ450F frame with FI that had massive power. Doesn't that Suter 500 have FI? I mean, you can even buy FI kits for scooters now. I reckon KTM will sell FI 2 strokes in the future. Then it will be super easy to convert other bikes to FI using KTM parts. I recently saw a article about a Geico AMSOIL Honda CRF150 (4 stroke) that uses a KTM injection system.

    I read an article about pollution from motorcycles and 4 stroke bikes are generally pretty terrible. Especially considering many people remove factory cats on new bikes with slip ons or full systems.

    Oh lastly, I think someone solved the problems with the V-Due Bimota 500 and apparently is quite reliable. Apparently the problem stemmed from the crankcases more than anything.

    My garage is 3 2 strokes to 2 4 strokes. 2 stroke power!
     
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  6. KICKERMAN360

    KICKERMAN360 Well-Known Member

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    Are you a stroker or a smoker?
     
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  7. Brizfox

    Brizfox Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    2 strokes rule in my shed...,and there's no left wi g political correction either......sorry if I've offended anyone.
     
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  8. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Fortunately nearly all of these outstanding motorcycles end up in the hands of those that appreciate them. Here is a pic of one that Yamaha did.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I love my two strokes. I never have reliability issues.
    Modern two stroke designs with direct injection and trapper valves pollute less than four strokes and diesels.

    But the days of the internal combustion engine (2 stroke and 4 stroke) are numbered.
    Internal combustion efficiency of 25 to 40% cannot match electric of over 90%.
    Within 10 years time we will all be buying electric cars and motorcycles.
    By 2030 the concept of individual vehicle ownership will be obsolete.
    This was predicted in Tony Seba's book Clean Disruption. And Tesla is advancing faster than Tony predicted.
    Check out the Zero SR motorcycle. 250cc form factor and quicker than CBR600 0-100kmh.
    Tesla P90D in Ludicrous Mode does 0-100kmh in 2.8 seconds (and electric tech is still young).
     
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  10. KICKERMAN360

    KICKERMAN360 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think combustion engines will be as obsolete as many reports and articles suggest. I give it at least 50 years. And don't under estimate people desire to have a petrol vehicle - quite a few people still run vehicles with leaded fuel. Electric motors are great but rather boring. There's little to really change to make the motor different. Twin V4, I4, I3 and singles all have their different quirks. And the 0-100 figure is impressive, but a CBR600 is still faster than most sports cars and many hypercars. I believe the 0-100 time for the CBR600RR is 3.0 seconds so pretty quick!

    Also, the regular family car (sedan or hatchback) may be electric too, but electric is far away from being able to dent the trucking market (semi trailers all the way down to utes and 4x4s), or vans etc. Battery technology generally moves at a fairly slow pace despite news reporting on breakthroughs every week.

    Lastly, right now most electricity comes from coal or gas, so electric vehicles will help but the environment is still doomed even if we replaced most cars with electric ones.
     
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  11. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    We live in interesting times. Liquid fuels are absolutely needed, for example aircraft are not going to switch to battery power anytime soon. The advances in bio-fuels, particularly 3rd and 4th generation, are very interesting. I personally don't think much of ethanol but a butanol-ethanol blend seems like a good idea. Speaking of which if my R4 project fails its Euro "whatever" test when I go to renew the registration then I will fill the tank with Butanol and go back for another try.
     
  12. KICKERMAN360

    KICKERMAN360 Well-Known Member

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    Given enough energy we could just end up deriving our own biofuels like you mention. I give humanity 100 years to get off oil and onto some form of nuclear power (fusion, best case but even fission with thorium or other kinds of msr will do) to produce alternative liquid fuels. Still, we'll be mixing 2 stroke premix for years to come! They seem to still be quite popular for marine too.
     
  13. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    And then u have us bunch of stupid bastards who keep on embracing old technology :cool:
     
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  14. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Easily within 10 years the price of batteries will reduce to the point where Electric cars are the same price or cheaper than internal combustion engine (ICE). My wife has a fully electric Nissan Leaf. I never choose to take my ICE car instead of hers. Mine only gets used when absolutely necessary. Servicing is a fraction of the price and it costs about $5 a week to fuel it which we do by plugging it in at home, so when purchase price becomes the same why will anyone choose ICE. How many companies will still make them when they are not selling enough of their ICE cars today?

    Her car is more fun than my 3.5ltr V6. The V6 feels so slow and sluggish in comparison.

    When self driving trucks and busses hit the market the buss and truck companies will see an opportunity to not have drivers.
    Hire a long range fuel cell unit for you 4x4 when you want to be serious off road.

    The huge amounts of investment put into Solar Panels improved the technology and drove down prices.
    That investment money is now redirected into battery tech. 10 years is a long time when talking technology these days.

    Most people won't buy an electric to save the environment they will do so for economic reasons.
    Most people won't stick with ICE because they love the sound or any other reason. They will change for economic reasons.
     
  15. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Warning! Old Guy Rant

    Now I don't want to offend but . . .
    Last, but not least, there is the aesthetic. When Yamaha released the first slant 4, in the form of the FZ750, it was such a big deal that the engine was a visual feature. Likewise I am fitting a half fairing to my project bike because I want to see the engine. How about the engineering of an electric bike? This hideous box is the battery and this hideous cylinder is the motor. Excuse me while I vomit.

    Would I buy an electric car? Sure, because I cannot afford an Aston Martin Vantage, so a car to me is a transport box. My motorcycle is something else.
     
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  16. Fox McScrooge

    Fox McScrooge Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    If they brought out a mass produced 500cc 2 stroke v-twin or v4 supersport I'd be one of the first in line with my money but it just isn't going to happen.

    As far as enduro goes, 2 strokes are lighter, powerful and way easier to maintain than the 450 fours. You can drown them and all you generally have to do is drain the engine. Maintenance wise they generally just need a new piston and rings in them every now and again, which you can easily do yourself for a few hundred bucks. You can pull them out of ruts or bogs way easier. I ran 450s for a while and top end rebuild is up around 1000 bucks with the cranks fairing not much better than a 2 banger. The 450s might win motocross and desert races but for a bush bike, for me, it's 2 stroke all the way.
     
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  17. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I like mine faired. Here is me with my beloved TZR:

    [​IMG]

    So does this Zero SR look worse?

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Off road I like my 1979 IT175F. Reliable and simple and lots of fun.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Fox McScrooge

    Fox McScrooge Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Would love to get my hands on one of those Blair.
     
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  20. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    TZR.jpg 13040994_497144300471789_7402548041653430726_o.jpg
     
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