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Discussion 2-stroke revival?

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by ShaneP, Apr 15, 2016.

  1. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I like both types of engine, but prefer the two stroke for off road and four stroke for a road bike.

    My mate just stuffed his WR250 by putting all three intake valves through the piston. Parts alone are $1600 + for new barrel, head, etc. Ouch!
     
  2. A.C

    A.C Well-Known Member

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    As a general proposition I would tend to agree with Malestrom here, although there are a few examples of race or concept electric bikes which look somewhat reasonable. Most do a pretty good job of hiding all the ugly bits, but they still look peculiar.
    http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/021712top.jpg
    http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...nness-tt-zero-shinden-san-electric-bike_1.jpg
    http://amadeusphotography.com/wp-co...1pc-at-ttzero/motoczysz_e1pc_at_ttzero_08.jpg
    http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-...2011-motoczysz-e1pc/2011-motoczysz-e1pc-8.jpg

    On the subject of stinkwheels, I personally don't have any urge to own one, and the only way I'd see one making its way into my possession is if a mate's old man decides he wants to get rid of his mid '70s TZ250 and gives it away :prankster:.
     
  3. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    My experience with 2 strokes is noisy, smelly, short lifespan, hit and miss with reliability (need constant maintenance), inefficient on fuel... and the most awesome power band ever... :oops:

    With that said I think 2 strokes are outdated tech, bit of fun in the dirt because of the sheer power pleasure... but there's a reason most bikes are 4 stroke these days. The life of the 2 smoker was prolonged when the cost difference to make a 4 stroke engine was significant, but engine manufacture is cheap and all the R&D has been poured into the 4 strokes now so... I guess it would be nice if someone could come up with an efficient 2 stroke design... not sure that will ever happen though.

    People have been promising the "electric" takeover for 20 years, the first electric cars appeared in the 90's and they've never really taken hold... probably many reasons why, but I don't think this thread is about that.

    My '79 ds80 still goes pretty well though, 1st or second kick and it's had a farmyard life mainly (and then sat around in a shed for 15 years). Hang on... didn't I just say something about short lifespan and reliability? :crazypilot:
     
  4. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Electric cars have been around before IC engined cars.
    The worlds first land speed record was set by Camile Chenazty (I think that is how to spell it) in 1899 at a heady 40Km/h on a road near Paris, France. There were electric cars in New York USA in the 1920's that plugged into parking meters for a recharge.
    The Orbital Engine Company (started by Ralph Sarich in Perth WA in the 1970's) have been developing an air/fuel injection for two strokes that was supposed to run cleaner and make more power than convential four strokes.

    Some machines are just better suited to two stroke engines, like chain saws, mowers, model aeroplanes, brushcutters, etc. Have you ever used a Honda four stroke brushcutter? Very heavy and not a lot of 'guts'.
     
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I didn't get the message about all these replies. Where to start...
    There are no emissions regulation for motorcycles in Australia, just as long as they don't blow smoke for more than 10secs. As pointed out, there are injection systems like those from Orbital used in aprilia soocters and evinrude outboards that greatly reduce emissions - can't remember if they are wet bottom ends and inject only after closing the exhaust port, thus no unburnt fuel escaping out the exhaust. So Australia is 2-stroke friendly.
    The electric bike/car has come along way and I've read good things, but if you want to go past the battery range you have to wait 5-8 hours. They need to use generic battery packs that can be swap-and-go style servos. Ilse of Man TT race has e-bike category, check them out.
    2-strokes are like turbos: the sudden rush of power makes them seem more powerful then they really be, but makes awesome fun. 125 MX bike are great fun because you have to be all over it to get the best from them and the sound like you are going fast, even if you're not. :-D Breaking traction on the dirt is fun! Breaking traction on the bitumen is scary on a bike, I should know, I had an R1 with a powrband, didn't go well for me or the bike when I high-sided it. This might be their biggest obstacle.
    Maintenance schedules is the other. Many high-revving 250 4-stroke road bikes never have the engine apart in a 100,000km - one guy with an Across reckoned he had done half a million ks on his without a rebuild. This is the other major factor.

    But the gist seems to be that there are some enthuists who do like the 2-banger, but they tend to have grease under their fingernails and a few projects in the shed.
     
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  6. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    That sure is me.
     
  7. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Old dirt bikes yes but newer 2 strokes have interchangeable power valves and electronic ones
     
  8. fasteddy

    fasteddy Active Member

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    I grew up on two strokes and hope to be back on one shortly. Ain't nothing like the sound and smell of a two stroke in the morning
     
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  9. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    OK, time for honesty. I was really doing market research to see if it was something worth pursuing as a business, manufacting modern 2-stroke road bikes. The market seems like they are more secondhand buyers with a few possible new (I estimate about 1 out of 100 interested people to be buyer, and that might be spread over 10years). The issues are maintenance and reliability (modern vehicles have very high expectations and don't accept sudden failures, with racing dirtbikes being the exception) and performance of a 600/1000cc supersport being so high - I'd need to make it under 130 and over 130hp to get noticed. It's a big task, particularly at a retail price of under $15k. So, it would be either a H2 style of high-priced performance in ultra low numbers, or maybe nor at all.
     
  10. KICKERMAN360

    KICKERMAN360 Well-Known Member

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    Performance Or Reliability. You only get one with a 2 stroke! Good examples are 2 stroke lawn care equipment - goes for years and years, probably with hundreds of hours of run time. Or a GP-spec 2 stroke which is clapped out after 30min of race time.

    You can find some middle ground but a modern Honda sports bike can easily make it to 60,000 kms without an engine rebuild. An RGV or RS or NSR would have been rebuild quite a few times if not seized by that time.
     
  11. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Really? Not in my experience.
    Sounds more like modern 4 stroke dirt bikes to me. Have a look at the service intervals in the Yamaha WR450 service manual.
    Japanese two strokes have been reliable since they went to electronic ignition in the 1970s.

    Seizing two strokes! This isn't the 1950s.
     
  12. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    2-strokes seize up when the big-end bearings collapse and jam, not uncommon on dirtbikes, 2 and 4 stroke. Life span of MX dirt bikes are much the same for 2&4-stroke, so long as they are serviced as per the manual, which is very frequent.
    A 4-stroke road bike might live for 100,000km on just a couple of oil and filter changes. It'll need some designing to get a 2-stroke to that level.

    Also, if a 2-stroke was to make 200hp, the power band would have to be smoothed out to avoid killing people - current 4-strokes already want to kill people just for sport, let alone the anger living with particial chaotic airflow rhythms. :p Oh well, maybe we'll just skip 2-stroke and go to the next compact power plant and advance it. NOT Wankel rotary! Though I know I could improve it.
     
  13. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    In my humble opinion the majority of four stroke dirt bikes are overpriced, unreliable and expensive junk and they only exist because of politics and money.
    http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/future-of-two-strokes.html
    Reliability is another myth. Yes, the old XL250 Honda trail bikes were reliable. Past tense.

    Twin cylinder 600cc and 155 hp


     
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  14. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    These new engines are winning clean air awards from the EPA, producing outrageous amounts of power and torque, and being enjoyed by the boating and snowmobile industry, and in the meantime we get nothing.

    I guess the big four, or at the very least Honda, are paying BRP 100 million a year not to license the technology for a motorcycle engine.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Twin cylinder 600cc and 155hp, yes please. :dance2:
    Now how to adapt one of these engines to a bike frame? :oops:

    Modern water cooled two strokes run with synthetic oils will last far longer than the older aircooled engines run with mineral oils.
     
  16. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Picked up my ozone eating smoke blowing 4 stroke killer hahaha
    Couldn't help myself I love the smell of 2 stroke smoke in the morning image.jpeg
     
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  17. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    Is it the 300? Apparently the new 300 is very well-mannered and tunable in power vavle more than the usual opening at a set rpm. But does that make it less 2-strokey?
     
  18. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Na 2010 250 went with it as u can bolt on the 300 kit if u want it
    Can change a lot of little things to adjust the way it brings band on
    I think it just the smarter 2 strokes now and they 250 still killing it in enduro world
     
  19. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    @maelstrom the e-Tec system is used by Aprillia, but only on scooters. The Rotax engines you refer are currently marine and snow, they seem a bit heavy (and that's without transmission) and chances are these applications don't put as many hours on a motor as road vehicles. Check out the Rotax range on their website. I've heard some reports on Rotax engines, but need to find out more about durability of their 2-strokes.
     
  20. aky141

    aky141 Well-Known Member

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    I have a Dt200 that's plenty fast enough, and reliable enough to use for daily riding, 33hp from 200cc's of displacement, gets 180kms on 8L, and i've owned it for five years, rebuilt it twice for $200ea. It's not peaky or unmanigable, does around 140kph. Not bad for any small displacement dirt bike. It was one of the cheapest bikes of their day. it's got oil injection that only needs topping up every 3 or so tanks of fuel. I love it, I'll probably keep it till the day i die(as they're worth nothing). Anyone who says two stroke are unmanageable or unreliable, Needs to stop riding race bikes and hardcore enduro machines.
     
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