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Project Bought a ZXR250C.

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by Linkin, Jan 30, 2017.

Page 19 of 25
  1. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Same situation here , definitely clutch area not timing chain , noise quietens when stood upright probably because of the oil. At 1 minute when I release the clutch and load it up the noise goes away the same as your bikes. Not bad for a cold start eh

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2018
    TonyZXR, Aug 19, 2018
    #361
  2. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Clutches rattle and videos of engine noises never seem to work. I wouldn't be splitting engines unless it had a death rattle. When bearings fail they make horrible noises and leave lots of metal bits in the oil.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    maelstrom, Aug 19, 2018
    #362
  3. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    ruckusman, Aug 19, 2018
    #363
  4. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Yes. I think Linkin has changed all those bits & the ZXR clutch differs to the ZZR clutch...I'm pretty sure.
     
    Frankster, Aug 19, 2018
    #364
  5. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Yep, that's what mine does. Need to get to the bottom of this issue. I've never had it before on a ZXR engine. I agree with Maelstrom that it shouldn't be a pull it apart to fix job. @Linkin where is the positive neutral finder mechanism you mentioned? Is it in the gears near the first gear cog?
     
    Frankster, Aug 19, 2018
    #365
  6. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    2nd/5th gearset from memory, have to check the service manual.

    A models do not have it though...
     
    Linkin, Aug 19, 2018
    #366
  7. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Phew, for a minute there I was thinking "how have I missed this?". Mine is an A engine. @TonyZXR is the rattle you have on an A or C engine?
     
    Frankster, Aug 19, 2018
    #367
  8. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Well-Known Member

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    Can confirm A2 does have the positive neutral finder
     
    TonyZXR, Aug 19, 2018
    #368
  9. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Okay, so now I have to find that. I'm guessing you have to split the cases to get to it?
     
    Frankster, Aug 19, 2018
    #369
  10. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    No Frank, don't do it. Just don't pull the clutch lever in and all will be good.
     
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    maelstrom, Aug 19, 2018
    #370
  11. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    But did he replace the basket with a brand new one?

    Seems you're trawling for an esoteric cause for the noise when it's likely the worn damper rubbers in the clutch basket assembly itself

    BTW in the thread I posted there were links to replacement rubbers on ebay so it's not an arduous task to do the repair as a first step before you contemplate splitting cases in search of something else
     
    ruckusman, Aug 19, 2018
    #371
  12. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Yep... a couple of pages back but the complete clutch including the push rod and lever have been changed....
     
    Andych, Aug 19, 2018
    #372
  13. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member

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    I think we are see that it is everyone's zxr. Mine rattles, too. There is an acceleration and deceleration pattern to the flat-plane inline-4 crankshaft. This will mean the gearbox also has an acceleration/deceleration pattern, where the springs and rubbers in the clutch might "bounce" without load, take up that effect when loaded. If you've ever drive a ute without a tray or just a light alloy tray, then you'll know about tye bouncing and topping out of the dampeners. Load the ute and it works smoothly. Also, the gearbox contains 6 sets of gears and 3 selectors, so there's plenty of parts there to rattle. If the rattle only goes under load, not by just pulling the clutch in, then it could be a timing chain wave - you might have seen this effect on a chainsaw or drive belt where it has S-shape on a straight or flaps in a pattern. But mostly, I wouldn't be too concerned, this rattle seems pretty standard.

    My 2c
     
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    ShaneP, Aug 20, 2018
    #373
  14. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Even the clutches with springs in the back will make a noise if the springs are loose. I'd be checking to see if there is any movement between the basket and gear first.
     
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    Murdo, Aug 20, 2018
    #374
  15. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Okay. I will check all those suggested bits today and see what I find. I've had plenty of these bikes and this is the first one I've ever had rattle. Hopefully, it is something simple.

    @ruckusman I wasn't dismissing your suggestions or links, so sorry if it came across that way. Cheers
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
    Frankster, Aug 20, 2018
    #375
  16. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    No that's OK - I walked into the discussion late, but as your potential diagnoses got more elaborate it made me remember my time with FZR carbs - the solution was simple but I kept overlooking it in search of more elaborate causes
     
    ruckusman, Aug 20, 2018
    #376
  17. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Cheers. I do hope it's a simple fix too.

    I have to take this engine out of the frame anyway as it started to blow smoke the more we ran it. Murdo's diagnosis was valve oil seals as it seemed much worse on open throttle after a period of shut throttle. So, I have ordered new seals and I might as well have a good look at the rings and barrels while I have it out. I had previously done the valve clearances, but didn't touch the clutch.
     
    Frankster, Aug 20, 2018
    #377
  18. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I think now it's just how they are... at least for the 45HP motors

    Mine has had everything I can think of without splitting the motor done to address it, tuned and balanced to within an inch of its life. I'm not going to bother chasing it any further. It runs the smoothest it ever has and makes good power. I might do the manual chain tensioner when I do the clearances next, along with all the spark plug and valve cover seals.

    I've been riding around the last few days and the bike is performing brilliantly. I wish I could get to wring it out more often but it is not likely in 60-80km/h zones.

    Doing some revision and exams on engines and so on at TAFE today, two things jumped out at me that screamed 'my ZXR does that!'

    One was about aggressive cam profiles for top end / high rpm power and the effects at low and mid range RPM... those being a lumpy idle and a torque curve with a big dip in the middle.

    Well, the ZXR has a flat spot at around 7,000, makes peak torque at what? 14,000RPM with peak power at 16,000? That's exactly half of peak torque and where you would expect a dip... was watching a video on Yamaha EXUP's designed to counter-act that, as a variable-length exhaust pipe is not feasible.

    The EXUP and similar systems reflect the exhaust pulse back towards the exhaust valve, and when timed properly, prevent fresh mixture from exiting out the exhaust during overlap. Which incidently helps to smooth out the torque dip in the curve.

    Anyone who has ridden an FZR250 or a bike with EXUP will know that they make bulk torque from down low.

    So I believe it's just how it is with the design of the ZXR... perhaps they have those mythical race cams? People have always said in the past that the ZXR's were the most outright powerful of the i4 250's... I believe it.


    With all that said, I can't seem to stop that 'new bike itch' and looking at gumtree... I've held on to this bike longer than any other I've owned, so that should say something about it :)
     
    • Well said! Well said! x 2
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    Linkin, Aug 21, 2018
    #378
  19. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    So I pulled the ZXR valve timing numbers from the spec sheet and plugged them into this handy website which crunched the numbers and spat out a nice picture :)

    Don't ask me why their 'clockwise' rotation is backwards, makes my head spin. Here's the site if you want to play with it

    https://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel.aspx

    Intake Open - 46 deg BTDC
    Intake Close - 74 deg ABDC
    Exhaust Open - 63 deg BBDC
    Exhaust Close - 33 deg ATDC

    Overlap 79°

    Intake Duration 300°

    Intake Lobe Centre 104° ATDC

    Exhaust Duration 276°

    Exhaust Lobe Centre 105° BTDC

    Lobe Separation 104.5° (Cam°)

    UfZxH8f.png
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    Linkin, Aug 21, 2018
    #379
  20. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Why don't you have a crack at grafting an EXUP system to a ZXR engine?
     
    Frankster, Aug 21, 2018
    #380
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