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Carburetor Jetting - Should you go lower to run higher octane fuel?

Discussion in 'Tech Tips' started by Th3_Huntsman, Jun 16, 2014.

  1. Th3_Huntsman

    Th3_Huntsman Senior Member Contributing Member

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    Guys,

    My a model ZXR is a 1980's bike and was tuned to run 91 octane fuel. As it is getting harder to find 91 octane unleaded without ethanol (I hate E10!!!!) I have been thinking of what I can do to run premium 98 octane more efficiently (not run rich).

    My question is this - Could I run the main jets from a c model set of carbs I have and run 98? so instead of 125,128,128,125 jets I would be running 122,125,125,122 Would this be too lean with the premium fuel? what do we reckon would I see an increase in economy and power by doing this?
    Not that my bike is running too bad ATM it just seems too hard to find good fuel!

    All feedback and ideas are welcomed!

    Cheers Tyson AKA The Huntsman
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
  2. risky

    risky risky

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    beyond my knowledge. doubt if jet change needed.
     
  3. Th3_Huntsman

    Th3_Huntsman Senior Member Contributing Member

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    Thanks risky, my assumption is that if the petrol is higher in octane you require less of it for the same result hence why I'm thinking smaller jets. Just a theory is all, unless the last couple of 98 octane tanks I have run have been **** but I got worse economy then 91 and felt worse as in just didn't have that extra pickup.
     
  4. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    Google something like 'compression ratio and octane ratings.'
     
  5. Th3_Huntsman

    Th3_Huntsman Senior Member Contributing Member

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    According to the charts I found 110 octane is recommended lol. So if the factory recommends 91 octane one can ascertain that the stock jetting is massively rich possibly..... To make up for the lack of octane. So my idea could be a success. Also can go towards explaining why the zxr250 has bigger jets then the zxr400.
     
  6. cal

    cal Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    from my understanding, higher octane generally gives the A/F mixture a better strike rate and yes, can be run a little leaner safely. the fuel is refined in the evaporation chamber, im told by a Shell rep that when it is harvested in the higher parts of this chamber, it is in fact the 98 and upwards ron yeilded. lower parts of the chamber give off 91ron fuels. so therefore in my logic..... the 98 would be a much 'finer' fuel.... so does this mean you could in fact lower jets sizes due to this finer fuel? this could also mean the fuel swirls much better with the air mixture as it gets drawn through the manifold? in turn increases the total % of fuel utilised when the plug fires.

    interesting experiment would be to down size jets and re-do the idle mixture..... see if it makes a big difference? using heat range 8 irridium plugs too could top this off well.:crazypilot:
     
  7. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    As Mr Grey pointed out octane rating is concerned with compression ratio. As I understand it air/fuel or stoichiometric ratio is not related to octane rating.
    cheers
    Blair
     
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  8. Abel

    Abel Abel

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    The answer is yes you could jet down slightly, but not for the reasons you may think.
    He's the easy way to think about it:
    A higher octane rating doesn't mean the liquid itself holds any more potential energy, it's just that you can get more energy out of it (when mixed with air) because you can squash it up (compress it) more before you light it (Ignition).
    When you do light it you get a multiplication of pressure rather than an specific addition, so for more power squash it up as much as you can.
    The actual a/f ratio it's best to burn it at stays broadly the same however as maelstrom says. So, if the world was ideal, it would make no difference what fuel you put in, and your jetting would always be right, irrespective of what octane rating the fuel had - just so long as it was high enough not to cause detonation.
    However, the world isn't ideal, there's death, worse than that the tax man, and worse still oil companies, who to reduce cost are sneaking ethanol into all fuels in small amounts - not just your E10. Ethanol of course makes you run lean, so you should jet up accordingly. So, if your jetting has been done recently on a dyno on 91, then it will have taken this into account, and the lower ethanol content of 98 will allow you to jet down slightly to compensate.
    If your jet specs are from a time (80's) when things were a little more honest then they should stay as they are, even on the 98.
    More likely your jetting is just rich anyway as it's specified for the whole world, you've got some warm weather, a slightly clogged air filter etc, so the ethanol in 91 got you back to the correct ratio - that's why it felt better.
    The only way to tell is to take it to the dyno, or use it as an excuse for more extreme tuning.
    Looking back I have a feeling this post doesn't really answer your question!
     
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  9. Th3_Huntsman

    Th3_Huntsman Senior Member Contributing Member

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    Mmmm variables, it was just an idea lol
     
  10. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    What Abel said.

    "According to the charts I found 110 octane is recommended lol."
    Those charts are for an Austin A40. Combustion chamber shape has developed over the last 50 years to the point that very high compression ratios are being used with pump gas/fuel/petroleum/petrol or whatever you want to call it. The downside of that is that the risk of pre-ignition increase dramatically. Don't heli-coil the spark plug thread in your modern ultra high compression single, or chances are you will have a big hole in your piston.
     
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  11. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Anybody know what's involved in order to run avgas? I hear guys at the drags talking about this stuff all the time, but I don't really know what it is and why it's used in racing?
     
  12. risky

    risky risky

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    115 octane. do not know jetting but if you run methanol or nitro you need bigger jets.you can also run hydrazine but it explodes at room temp so needs to be kept chilled.has been banned for 50 years. was magic fuel.

    the avgas allows you to run higher compression which means more explosion so more power.it is a leaded fuel but now hard to buy in 20 litre cans[shell a]
     
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  13. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Risky,

    From what I understand, the ZXR250 is already a high compression motor. Would running 115oct or avgas be detrimental to the engine's longevity?

    I'd like to try it once I have a few other bits sorted, but don't want to hole a piston or window the block. What's the downside of running 115 or avgas?
     
  14. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    kaboom.png
     
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  15. risky

    risky risky

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    detrimental-NO, downside-COST OF FUEL.plus-RELIABILITY.if you rn methanol it will melt the plugs and pistons by running lean.pistons develop holes where the plug fires and the electrode gets funny deposits.nitro will grenade a motor if you get a backfire.never leave methanol in an alloy container as it corrodes it[carbies]

    avgas is run in plane engines for reliability. i do not know their compression ratio but it fires well with magneto spark.you can put in in your car engine with no problems,
     
  16. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Avgas will run in a stock motor with no worries, but you will not get the full benefit with out raising the compression to 12:1 or better. The other drawback is actually getting hold of it. The biggest benefit I found when running it in my racing cars was that it was of a consistence quality.
    These days the Avgas 110LL (low lead) is no better than the 98 premium from the bowser. The 115/130 is the good stuff but hard to find. This has 0.8 grams of Tetra Eythel Lead per litre, 98premium has only 0.02. It is the lead that stops the 'pinging' inside an engine.
    If you wish to try some in your bike I don't think you will notice any difference over the 98 premium.
     
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  17. cal

    cal Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    im liking all these facts!
     
  18. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Regards Huntsman's original question, the jetting would only need changing if the engine was not happy with the fuel.
    I run all my bikes on 95 premium with no problems or needing to rejet.
     
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  19. Th3_Huntsman

    Th3_Huntsman Senior Member Contributing Member

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    I was awaiting input from you Murdo cheers
     
  20. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    LOL, that's what I was worried about!
     

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