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Project CBR250RR (MC22) EFI Project. Now with Turbo

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by akeizm, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. akeizm

    akeizm Active Member

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    Hi all,

    I've been a long time lurker and was also a member of old cbr250.com webpage before it was sold off. My first bike was a CBR250RR and I wish I never sold it, was a fun little bike. I enjoyed my 954 I had after but something about the 250 was always calling me back. Anyway quite a long time ago an EFI project was started in the UK which I'm sure a few of you are familiar with (cbr250rri.com) and around the same time I was looking at trying it myself, but life came in the way and I cancelled all my projects.

    Come to the last few months I decided to contact Thomas from cbr250rri.com and have a chat with him and he was very helpful and filled in a few questions I had, and with that information I was able to attempt this project myself (he also provided me with his old tune for his old ECU, which he has moved away from and use it in my ECU (more powerful than the one he had)). I used a local mechanic shop here called Racing Evolution (https://racingevolution.com.au/) to machine the carbies used (they were trashed, holes in them so no big loss), weld in my fuel pump and install a wide band into my exhaust.

    I've used a set of carbs that I got for free, they had a hole in the fuel bowl and one of the vacuum chambers was cracked, both of which I don't need. Got a fuel tank from a 2012 Kawasaki 650 (From Kiffsta, hopefully he remembers me talking to him about this project) and got the flange and pump mounted into a 250 fuel tank. The 650 fuel pump is returnless to made the fuel system simpler (no need for regulator or return line). Then used a set of FZ6 injectors, which in honostly are too big (220cc) but I had them lying around so why not.

    I used a Megasquirt V3 with MS3X over the original Microsquirt that Thomas had chosen. Reason was he was worried about the computing power of the Microsquirt when all options were enabled so I went with the Megasquirt V3 as it had twice the computing power of the Microsquirt (the MS3 has the same as the MS3pro). I also added the MS3X option to give me 8 channels for injectors and 8 channels for coils. At this point in time I'm batch firing injectors as I don't have a cam sensor yet, and I'm using a self built coil driver to run the original coils as the coil outputs are only logic drivers (the coils will burn them out without the driver).

    So, after a few months this is where I'm at. I've got a CBR250RR that starts on EFI! I've now got to finish calibrating my sensors and heat cycle the bike to check to leaks etc. Then I need to rev the bike to check the VR signal for any signal losses.

    Thanks, Marc.



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  2. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Great work Mark. Will be watching the progress on this one.
    Cheers
    Blair
     
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  3. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    That really is quite an introduction - magnificent work thus far - welcome
     
  4. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    Yeah mate , I remember you, glad you found us and posted up your project .
     
  5. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Marc,

    Welome.
    Really keen to hear more about your project as it progresses.
    Keep us updated.

    Peter.
     
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  6. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Welcome Marc, sounds like you have it pretty well sorted.
    Couple of questions;
    1/ why? what are you trying to achieve, more power, better economy or better reliablity.
    2/ How are you going to control the fuel pressure without a regulator? Without a reg you are getting the same fuel pressure at idle as you are at full throttle, possibly causing over fuel/rich at idle and lean at full throttle.
    Interested to know how you got around these problems.
     
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  7. DannoXYZ

    DannoXYZ Well-Known Member

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    Regulator is actually built into pump assembly. It’s actually not returnless, just that FPR and return circuit is built into housing to simplify installation with only one external hose needed.

    This awesome project! I’m contemplating doing same with my MC19. Some questions:

    - did you re-use factory flywheel & pickup?
    - are you planning on using staged dual injectors?
    - any issues with high RPMs and redline?

    there was some talk about MS not having an RPM limit and can accommodate any redline. But some in-the-field experience indicates not.
     
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  8. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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  9. akeizm

    akeizm Active Member

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    Hi Murdo,

    Why? I was bored and wanted something to do and EFI is something that has been of interest of me for these bikes for a long time, especially since I saw that Thomas from cbr250rri was doing way back then. But I guess I also wanted a way to be able to tune it without mucking around with jets, needles etc. If I change something I don't need to pull the carbs.

    And yea as been mentioned before, the fuel pump regulates the fuel pressure itself so I don't have to worry about it. If I find I don't have enough pressure I can buy new regulators to fit in the pump.
     
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  10. akeizm

    akeizm Active Member

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    Danno,

    Yes, I reused the factory flywheel and pickup (VR). I've yet to give the bike a decent go underload yet so cannot fully say how its performing but I did take it for a quick spin up the road yesterday, gave it a bit of throttle and it felt good. Didn't want to push too much yet, well the bikes not fully assembled so didnt want to do much yet hah.

    As for the redline, the table I have is setup to go up to 20,000RPM but from what I've read previously is that the stock MC22 actually revs to 18,000 max (as governed by the stock CDI) and that the 19,500rpm on the tach is inaccurate. The cbr250rri project used a Microsquirt which he is switching out to a more all in one, more powerful ECU. He found he could use the full rev range with the Microsquirt but was finding some "drift". It was fine as it was, but when he wanted to enable more features he was worried the drift would get worse. So after having a chat to him, I decided to use the MS3 for the extra processing power.

    At this point in time I'm using batch firing on my injectors (220cc ones, overkill for this bike), but I would like to go fully sequential. I just need to fit a Cam sensor to be able to do it as I've already got individual outputs for each injector.
     
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  11. akeizm

    akeizm Active Member

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    Another video

     
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  12. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    From some research which I've done, sequential & staged would be the holy grail, the injectors where you have them now are essential for something which idles and works at low revs - fuel pooling on the intake port walls is a very real phenomenon

    Whereas however I've also seen/read that shower injectors straight into the intake trumpets gives the best atomisation and combustion at higher revs - that's no simple task however
     
  13. DannoXYZ

    DannoXYZ Well-Known Member

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  14. DannoXYZ

    DannoXYZ Well-Known Member

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    Sequential isn’t as important as staged. That’s because above certain RPM/load, injectors would be open during entire time valves are open anyway. Only difference then is whether “off” time occurs in one or two intervals.

    Staged really helps bikes with large rev-range. Idle is difficult with injectors sized large enough for max-power and redline. Large injectors simply cannot deliver short enough pulsewidth with small amounts of petrol needed for clean idle.

    So using two injectors of 1/2 size works much better. Primary injectors would be positioned close to intake valves. Secondary injectors are positioned further away near beginning of runners. This gives more time to mix with more air volume to deal with high-RPM flow. Secondaries are typically brought online @ 1/2 redline.

    i used LinkECU G1v4 NOS I had laying around to EFI my street Ninja 250 couple years ago. Definitely much better throttle-response than CV carbs as there’s no delay waiting to build vacuum and lift slides. Also 3D ignition-maps really improves partial-throttle mid-range as you can use more spark-advance than RPM-based 2D curves.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  15. DannoXYZ

    DannoXYZ Well-Known Member

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    BTW, even with 13k redline, injectors are at limit of minimum pulse-width on Ninja 250. When I go to next stage of adding turbo, i’ll have to add staged injectors and LinkECU
    Storm ECU.

    That ECU can also take wideband-O2 input from TechEdge for auto-tuning of fuel-maps.
     
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  16. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK - you've definitely let the cat out of the bag, is a thread on your build and dev process in order - I won't make demands, but a polite suggestion...well yes
     
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  17. DannoXYZ

    DannoXYZ Well-Known Member

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    Yes, will start build thread when I finalise next stage. Still contemplating:
    - switch to EX500 engine
    - switch to MS3
    Primarily for glass-cockpit ShadowDash

    Sorry for thread-jack, I’ll start my own build thread.
     
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  18. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Very interested to read all about it, last question, the Link ECU seems to be a pretty powerful unit, is going to MS3 a backwards or sideways step, would that leave you back at square 1 with tuning?
     
  19. DannoXYZ

    DannoXYZ Well-Known Member

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    I started with Link over 25-yrs ago when I had Porsche tuning shop. Link was small enough that they showed interest in developing customised ECU for me that allowed me to build Porsche plug-n-play box.

    yes, lots of features such as many input channels for datalogging (O2,EGT, steering angle, rider’s pulse, etc.). Along with many output channels that can be used to manage boost controller, nitrous, 3D water-injection, intercooler spray, etc.

    However, when it comes down to it for most applications, what really matters is fuel and spark. Those additional features help you develop optimal fuel & spark tables. Once that’s done, they aren’t touched. MS can do fuel & spark just fine.

    I recently installed MS3 on Porsche Turbo and extracted +100bhp with no hardware changes just as easily as I did 20yrs ago with Link G1. It’s easy if you know what values to put into tables. MS has an advantage in that there are many more people who had used MS to convert carbies to EFI and have made their files public. For my Ninja 250, I just downloaded msq file from someone that had already done it. Started right up on 1st crank. :)
     
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  20. crshbndct

    crshbndct Active Member

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    What is that RPM/Speed Gauge you have?
     

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