/ Register

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Help FZR250 possible electrical problem

Discussion in 'Yamaha 250cc In-Line 4's' started by beano, Dec 23, 2016.

Page 1 of 2
  1. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Ireland
    My Bike:
    FZR250r and YZF-R1
    as above just wondering if anyone can possibly help shine some light on this. went out this morning to try get the bike started after doing the carbs, there wasn't enough battery to really crank her over so i took the battery out of my car and hooked it up while i put the bike one on charge.

    so i hit the starter and same thing, it feels like there's not enough juice to crank her over and there is an awful racket coming from the relay in the subframe. so i whipped it off and swapped it with a spare one i have from a 3ln-3 but that didnt work, seems to be slightly different, the pins are exactly the same but the body is a bit shorter.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    i uploaded a video of whats happening to my google drive, if anyone can shed some light it would be appreciated, link here:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-6LVdXzRTTGb3dRUWpuX1BJRlk/view?usp=sharing
     
    beano, Dec 23, 2016
    #1
  2. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1,420
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    no direct experience with the issue you're experiencing, however there's a starter solenoid located under the riders seat, it sounds as though there's a poor earth making the starter solenoid click on and off
     
    • Like Like x 2
    ruckusman, Dec 23, 2016
    #2
  3. Damus

    Damus She is a BEAST and riding it is comparable to sex Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    426
    Trophy Points:
    493
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    I.T.
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    My Bike:
    Honda CBR250RR
    Okay so I am not expert on the fizzers but I can point you in the right direction.
    Basically that box u have there looks like the CDI and generally speaking wont cause the "starter motor" to sound weak.
    Since you have hooked up a car battery that rules out the battery being the problem.
    If there is allot noise coming from the starter solenoid it could be busted, what you want is a moderately volumed "click click click click". To test the solenoid you unplug it and on the small positive and negative connections (not the 2 large terminals) you hook up the 12v battery. Then have a multi meter connecting to the 2 large terminals checking for continuity.
    If it clicks and gets continuity its fine.
    The starter motor could be on its way out HOWEVER before you pull it off and test it ETC, you could have a "grounding" issue.
    If a wire somewhere is grounding then that would cause these issues. Also if your main wires that lead to the batter and to the starter motor are old they could also be causing the issue.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Damus, Dec 23, 2016
    #3
  4. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    2,383
    Trophy Points:
    898
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Panel Beater, Spray Painter, Custom Fabricator
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha's , 1990 FZR250R 3LN3 , 1986 XT250TS 57R , 1984 IT200L 43G, 1976 IT400C 510
    I reckon the problem could be bad contact's in your starter solenoid, or possibly in the start switch.
    Some starter solenoid's can be pulled apart but bending the tab's holding the solenoid together, then carefully pull it apart and check thing's out.
    Check the brass terminal's inside, smear some grease on them and reassemble it.
    Check the battery earth to the frame near the regulator/rectifier too
    Other thing to try is the start switch could have dirty contact's, or the ignition switch could be causing it with dirty contact's too.
    Pull apart any connection clean with contact cleaner, apply some dielectric grease and reassemble.

    Pretty sure that relay is the EXUP relay, it's probably clicking like that due to the starter circuit drawing so much power, temporarily cutting power to the EXUP
     
    • Like Like x 2
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
    my67xr, Dec 23, 2016
    #4
  5. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    4,788
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tamworth, NSW
    My Bike:
    1937 Royal Enfield 250, CF Moto 250 V5, Honda's XL250, CBR250, FT500 plus a few others.
    Try putting the earth lead of your jumper leads onto the engine casing.
     
    Murdo, Dec 23, 2016
    #5
  6. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,736
    Likes Received:
    2,880
    Trophy Points:
    943
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2014
    Location:
    Sydney NSW
    My Bike:
    FZR250R 3LN6
    What's in your photo is likely the relay for the indicators.

    Fizzer's don't tolerate a weak battery. Most of the imported bikes have had the switchblocks modified to have the headlight always on, where prior to import there would be a switch to turn the headlight and tail light off (Grasshopper's 3LN3 still has this)

    You need to use a multimeter to determine the health of the battery, charging system, and wiring loom. Have you got a multimeter?
     
    Linkin, Dec 23, 2016
    #6
  7. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

    Messages:
    10,929
    Likes Received:
    6,720
    Trophy Points:
    1,168
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Between a Rock and a Hard Place
    Location:
    North by NW NSW Oztralia - Tamworth
    My Bike:
    *Kawasaki ZXR250C *Yamaha FZR250R 3LN1 *Yamaha FZR400 *Triumph Bonneville 750 T140V *Triumph Daytona 675 *Triumph Tiger 800XC
    Thats the main relay assembly and its a different part from 3LN3 onwards ... as you have discovered

    3LN1 part # 3LN-81950-00

    3LN3 + part# 3EN-81950-00

    And by the sound of it in your vid its stuffed .... I would be hunting a second hand one as I doubt it would be obtainable new

    Of course firstly try checking all the leads and connections as mentioned above as a short or bad earth etc could be causing it to tap dance
     
    GreyImport, Dec 23, 2016
    #7
  8. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1,420
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    If the relay is misbehaving then it's likely rebuildable internally.
    The components will be large discreet and will hopefully be easy to identify if there isn't a covering of silicone which needs to be removed first
     
    ruckusman, Dec 23, 2016
    #8
  9. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Ireland
    My Bike:
    FZR250r and YZF-R1
    ok so thanks everyone for the replies, loads to go on here, lot of people thinking its a bad earth somewhere will try and check that out first i suppose.

    @Linkin yes i have a miltimeter but am pretty inexperienced at its use however its looking like thats gonna be changing shortly :thumb_ups:

    so i went out for a quick look this morning before work and took another video, im going to try and explain this as best i can because i noticed this yesterday when i was trying to troubleshoot.

    if you leave the bike alone for say a half hour as you can see in this new video posted below, the relay doesnt start to break down till after the engine cranks over 8 or 9 times, but once this happens then the scenario in the first video occurs where basically it starts breaking down from the first crank of the starter, just wondering if this is maybe a smoking gun pointing to something?? not great at electrics so maybe its nothing but said id post it here as theres some talented people on this site that will know.

    link is here:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-6LVdXzRTTGWDlwXy1fMlhONUk/view?usp=sharing

    thanks to everyone for their help so far :D:D
     
    • Like Like x 2
    beano, Dec 23, 2016
    #9
  10. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,291
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Albury 2641
    My Bike:
    1987 Yamaha SRX250, Honda 1974 SL125 K1, 2022 Triumph Tiger Sport 660
    When chasing electrical issues it pays to have a Multi meter with a Buzzer... that way you can check continuity easily without having to worry about what the readings are... another useful tool is a test lamp... again.. it will tell you when you have a complete circuit..
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Andych, Dec 23, 2016
    #10
  11. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    4,788
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tamworth, NSW
    My Bike:
    1937 Royal Enfield 250, CF Moto 250 V5, Honda's XL250, CBR250, FT500 plus a few others.
    The buzz-buzz is your EXUP cycling, so that is ok. (You can see it moving in the vid.)
    The dying of the starter suggests that something is not carrying the current and is getting hot and losing contact. Check that the engine block is getting good earth (try a jumper lead from battery to engine) as if not it may be trying to carry the high current load through a small wire or even a cable.
    Next step would be to put your jumper leads onto the starter terminal and engine block and touch onto the battery. This will tell you if it is the starter motor itself or wiring to the starter motor that is your problem.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Murdo, Dec 24, 2016
    #11
  12. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Ireland
    My Bike:
    FZR250r and YZF-R1
    have put the negative on to the frame, didnt make any difference, then connected the positive of the jumper to the wire going to the starter and had good results, the starter turned over without the current breaking down like shown in previous videos.

    video of it here:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-6LVdXzRTTGenNKZ2RYcHRyVkk/view?usp=sharing

    so at least we know the starter is not goosed, im working tomorrow so it will be thursday before i get another chance to look at it, will try some of the other suggestions listed above then.

    in the mean time im hunting local breakers for a second hand relay.
     
    beano, Dec 28, 2016
    #12
  13. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1,420
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Something as simple as a corrosion (verdigris) on the wires inside a crimp will make things conduct poorly, it's worth re-doing crimp ends to check for this.

    I had a car which would periodically just click when I tried to turn it over, it was when, out of frustration, I hit the earth to the block with a socket that I discovered the cause and cure
     
    • Like Like x 1
    ruckusman, Dec 28, 2016
    #13
  14. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    6,400
    Likes Received:
    4,788
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tamworth, NSW
    My Bike:
    1937 Royal Enfield 250, CF Moto 250 V5, Honda's XL250, CBR250, FT500 plus a few others.
    Good work so far.
    Now before you buy another relay, take the wires that go to the starter from the battery off the terminals and see if you can wriggle or pull them out of the terminals. Some times the solder in the joints lets go and the wires just sit there not making good contact. Have seen this many times with older bikes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Murdo, Dec 28, 2016
    #14
  15. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Ireland
    My Bike:
    FZR250r and YZF-R1
    went at this again today............

    so first i swapped over the starter solenoid as i had one spare and thought why not just to cross it off the list.......

    [​IMG]

    no joy...........

    so then it was time to go at the relay

    [​IMG]

    so i sketched out a plan of where all the wires went, and also numbered them just in case i forgot, and started pulling out all the connectors just to make sure they were still making contact.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    that no.5 wire wasnt budging and after examination i noticed it didnt look quite as pressed in as the rest

    [​IMG]

    after eventually getting it out it dawned on me that it was the same colour as one of the wires from the starter solenoid so i followed it back and sure enough its the wire that carries the power from the starter solenoid, its been soldered back onto the connector but the solder was catching in the connecting strip causing it not to seat properly.

    i was getting excited thinking this must be the smoking gun!

    [​IMG]

    so i cleaned everything up, took off the bit of the solder that was catching, pressed all the tabs firmly back into the relay, connected up the battery, hit the starter and.................................

    its the exact same :mad::mad:

    nothing, nada, she cranks over a couple of times and then starts clicking.

    Pain in the ass, so i went through all the connectors again and noticed this on two of the connectors by the fuel pump.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    the two wires are crossed, however when i change them back to join with the proper colours nothing happens when i press the starter, its as if the ignition is off, swap them back again and she cranks but the relay still clicks like crazy.

    one of the wires appears to be from the sensor located at the bottom of the engine.

    [​IMG]

    the other seems to be some sort of earth that screws in just in front of the front sprocket.

    [​IMG]

    just wondering if maybe they have anything to do with my problems?? or if anyone have any thoughts on any of the above?? i know my post is pic heavy but its the easiest way to explain things i think.

    thanks in advance :bowdown::bowdown:
     
    beano, Jan 11, 2017
    #15
  16. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Ireland
    My Bike:
    FZR250r and YZF-R1
    SUCCESS!!!

    turns out it was the crossed wires in the post above, i put them back into the correct order and went to check them with the test lamp, could hear a click as soon as i touched the connectors for the blue wire, so i hit the starter and she turned over...........and kept turning over. :dance2::dance2:

    734418DD-95A1-4168-AA88-7D214D7E37A2_zpsvtcj4elp.jpg

    F4788DCA-DE31-405F-B3C4-52E0617D1B6B_zpsuphvbsoq.jpg

    The blue wire is the one for the earth, so it seems the dodgy earth theory was in fact correct so kudos to everyone who gave advice, its much appreciated, im pretty bollixed now from almost a full day out in the shed so will fix up the earth tomorrow and hopefully get her started at long last :D:D

    have the battery on charge so will have no excuses for not firing up in the morning!!
     
    • Like Like x 3
    beano, Jan 11, 2017
    #16
  17. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1,420
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Well done, from what you've done there, and from memory which is quite faded, the blue wire is the neutral sensor, I believe it goes to earth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    ruckusman, Jan 11, 2017
    #17
  18. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    2,383
    Trophy Points:
    898
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Panel Beater, Spray Painter, Custom Fabricator
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha's , 1990 FZR250R 3LN3 , 1986 XT250TS 57R , 1984 IT200L 43G, 1976 IT400C 510
    Yeah blue wire come's from the neutral switch and is earthed only when the bike is in neutral.
    The neutral switch has 2x JIS(Phillip's) head screw's holding it to the case, i would take it off and check the brass contact's are clean eg no corrosion or discolouring,same on the ring terminal on the end of the blue wire where the JIS screw hold's it to the switch
    Maybe give the contact's a scrub with a green or grey scotchbrite pad then smear them with some dielectric grease to stop it from happening again.

    That other sensor behind the rubber cover is for the oil warning light
     
    • Like Like x 1
    my67xr, Jan 11, 2017
    #18
  19. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,066
    Likes Received:
    6,872
    Trophy Points:
    1,168
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brisbane
    well done mate :thumb_ups:
     
    kiffsta, Jan 11, 2017
    #19
  20. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    1,420
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Perhaps we should sticky this as a troubleshooting guide, interesting that it would attempt to turn over at all with the neutral sensor plugged in incorrectly.

    From this failures to turn over at all or incorrectly as you experienced would be simplified by immediately grounding all of the safety wires - clutch, neutral and sidestand.
    Any others?
     
    ruckusman, Jan 11, 2017
    #20
Page 1 of 2

Share This Page