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Help FZR250 Temp gauge rises when lights are turned on?

Discussion in 'Yamaha 250cc In-Line 4's' started by Brandon Otte, Mar 12, 2020.

  1. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    I'm was confident I had it topped all the way up. When I changed the thermostat housing I completely drained it, keeping the coolant that came out because it is clean and green. I then had to rock it back and forth while it was slightly warmed up and as you say burp it by squeezing all the hoses. Yeah I noticed the frame/coolant line - I have the same concern about rust blocking the radiator, it might explain why when I rev it the temp gauge fluctuates as though the extra impeller speed could push coolant through...maybe :idk:
    Would you recommend I remove the radiator and give it a flush with the hose or shall I buy some radiator flush and flush the system? Is there a decent home made radiator flush? Just a pain to buy anything during level 3 atm.
    Also is there an exact coolant amount the 2KR's take? I believe the engine code is 1hx or 3hx or 1hx-3.
    I just checking the courier tracking for my infrared thermometer and will be here very soon so hopefully after my call out I can have a play with my bike.
    Thank you! :neo:
     
  2. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    Ahh no I didn't realise there were 2 drain plugs on the cylinders... thanks @GreyImport and @ruckusman :bowdown: So check water pump(just the top cover off to check) drain plugs to bleed it, radiator flush, check instrument cluster, check temps with infrared thermometer - something of that order. I feel removing the radiator wouldn't go amiss. With the thermometer shall I check the temps at the radiator inlet and exit, same with all hoses etc?
    Off to the plumb for now hopefully I have the time today to do everything but will check in tonight thanks everyone :neo:
     
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  3. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Cleaning vinegar and distilled water in a 1:3 ratio is a good coolant flush, it can be left in for a while, then dump, flush with clean water and refill

    There's definitely something going on with the electrics because of the way that needle jumps with the lights
     
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  4. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    Haven’t found any stray earth wires for the thermostat housing. Am about to take the front fairing off to measure current at the gauge. Just wondering, the fan switch on the thermostat housing has been disconnected and wired into a switch on the dash - would the earth be from those two wires and what way round on the fan switch do I connect it, does it matter?
    There has been extra indicator lights fitted to the tail would this have any affect?
     
  5. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    B661C638-514B-48EC-B674-509DA9E44DB1.jpeg I also noticed there’s a bolt missing from the bottom of one of the coil packs.
     
  6. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    So just measured the power to the instrument cluster and with light and off reads around 14volts and lights on drops to 10volts. Is that normal?
     
  7. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK, so there's the jump up with the lights on/off, and that's a big drop - does the voltage at the battery drop to that voltage also with the lights on?

    I don't want to assume, this was with the engine running?

    So less voltage/current makes the gauge rise, which means that it might not be getting proper voltage to begin with and is reading higher than it should - this assumption may be totally incorrect.
    I was working on the temperature sensor being 'negative temperature coefficient' which means that as it's measured temperature rises it's resistance decreases -> current increases and needle goes higher - this also may be incorrect

    Cleaning all contacts and ring connectors at the gauge cluster is probably advisable as a next step

    I'd say the fan switch is because the gauge has been reading incorrectly because of a problem elsewhere

    Past that I would be waiting till the engine is cold, measure the resistance to earth through the temperature sensor, then through it's wire to the gauge, then start the motor and see what changes in the temperature sensor resistance as things warm up
     
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  8. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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  9. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    We've just been through the regulator/rectifier - the old one was shot and outputting 17 volts, but yes you're on the right track, something is amiss amongst the electricals and I suspect it has been for quite time given the PO had installed a fan switch
     
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  10. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    Yup always done with the engine running, haven't thought to try with it off. So the voltage at the battery dropped from 14volts to 12+volts. I'll definitely open the cluster up tomorrow and cleaning all contacts, with crc556?
    That makes sense why they would've installed that fan switch - I did run an earth wire from the thermostat housing direct to battery negative and made no difference.
    So I would expect the resistance to be the same or slightly higher from the sensor and then through the wire to the gauge? I'm assuming the higher the temp the less the resistance, but, will confirm that tomorrow.

    I do have a spare thermostat housing which I've installed an aftermarket sensor into with an aftermarket temp gauge, would you say hooking that up temporarily would be a wise idea?
    I feel it'll eliminate the electrical issue I'm getting with the current gauge and will tell me exactly what temperature it's getting to.

    My infrared thermometer arrived today so I took some readings all over the cooling system hoses etc, all appeared consistent.
    The ones of most interest is the radiator inlet and outlet which you'll see in the photos below.(BTW I don't know which way the cooling runs I can imagine from the top of the radiator down?

    Lights on:
    IMG_4656.JPG

    Lights off:
    IMG_4657.JPG

    Radiator inlet:
    IMG_4654.JPG

    Radiator outlet:
    IMG_4655.JPG

    I took readings again after it sat idling for a while and the gauge was almost in the red with lights on and the thermometer readings were only a couple degrees higher.
     
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  11. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    That doesn't looks like it's close to overheating and boiling - I think @my67xr and @GreyImport have a digital thermometers, likely the same one, perhaps they take a measurement next time theirs is up to temp for comparison
     
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  12. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    start looking for earthing problems. No offence, but I see lots of rusty bits in your photos. Maybe the entire instument/light cluster is not well earthed. Just a thought.
     
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  13. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Pretty sure the thermostat opens @ 82° C
     
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  14. Brandon Otte

    Brandon Otte Well-Known Member

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    That’ll be great @ruckusman @GreyImport. Yeah thermostat opens at 82C. No offence taken@jmw76 the more I dig the more I want to rebuild the whole bike but that won’t be for a couple years. I’m leaning towards bad earthing too, this evening I pulled the front end off and had a look at the dash cluster - looks like new to be honest. I swapped out the temp gauge for an aftermarket unit just to see if the temp jumps with lights and sure enough it does. Got me thinking though, the PO has installed extra indicator lights on the tail. I was looking at the wires used and pretty sure they’re supposed to be earthing to the frame. It’s my next idea anyway so will take some photos of it tomorrow and try figure out where they originally went - my guess is they’re from the tail light ground.
    Here’s the instrument cluster, clean and corrosion free:
    69BAF9C8-A3E7-4FB5-AFB1-3FCB14E74C6F.jpeg

    And the aftermarket gauge:
    71A088E5-44E5-40B1-84D5-7B12A4E7F853.jpeg
    The gauge uses a different sensor so it was over reading but still jumped when I turned the lights on.
     
  15. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought to try and track down the problem.
    Have you tried removing the tail light bulbs. I think you indicated some concern regarding the tail light wiring.
    Do selectively pulling bulbs from the lights circuit, it might just give you an idea which one, if any are feeding current back into the gauge earth connection and lifting the voltage slightly.
    There has to be some wiring issue.
    Is the temp sendor a one wire or 2 wire connection? What happens it the sendor is disconnected? Does it go full scale or down to zero?
     
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  16. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Temp sender is 1 single wire, earthed through the thermostat housing
     
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  17. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK, here's a simple idea to test:

    What we think we know - the temperature sensor is a NTC (negative temperature co-efficient) device, that is as temperature rises, resistance reduces, current increases and gauge deflection increases

    So unscrew the ground from the back of the gauge, disconnect the connector from the temperature sensor and check that there is no earth from the gauge connection end to earth

    I reckon there that earth is shared with something else, lighting related, which is why the gauge shoots up when lights are turned on and it's reading too high already

    And rather than find that in amongst the loom, make another entirely isolated earth for the gauge directly to the temperature sensor and tape it in
     
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  18. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I reckon you're on he money ruckus man, it I'll add that it could be a bad positive connection causing voltage drop. My line of diagnosis would be to pull the headlight and tail light fuses one at a time, to eliminate the big loads, then work through the smaller stuff like indicators and dash lights. There's not much else as far as the lights go.
     
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  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Part of the logic is solid, however to me it seems there's already parallel path to ground for that gauge which seems to go through some resistance, all the time, that resistance decreases with the lights switched on, my recollection is that the smaller lighting loads are straight positive switched, with larger loads relay switched

    Frustrating as there's maybe one wire wrong or been tapped for another reason/purpose which has thrown that particular gauge out of whack
     
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  20. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Try running a lead from the body of the temp sender to the negative/ground terminal on the gauge. See if that makes a difference.
     
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