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Project Joker's Angry Fizzer 400

Discussion in 'Other Projects - Other Bikes (non 250's)' started by Joker, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Guess what I'm doing tomorrow....

    15780733_10157976673945716_8477222289876499387_n.jpg
     
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  2. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    Drinking beer ?
     
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  3. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    I think tearing my hair out might be closer...

    Any tips from the gurus on how to put stem seals ON? easy enough to pull the old ones off but I'm pushing the heck out of the first one with my thumb and it's oiled and the darned thing does not seem to want to go on. I'm loathe to start shoving things in there at risk of damaging the sealing membrane...

    Appreciate any help to relieve my insanity (apart from beer lol).
     
  4. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    You need a small socket or piece of tube to fit on the metal shoulder of the seal and a light tap with a small hammer to drive them home.
     
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  5. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Great thought, I was starting to wonder if that would work... just curious though... how do you tell when they're fully on...?
     
  6. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    When they wont go any further.
     
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  7. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Hmm. Ok so I've tried everything now. Oiling - no. Hot water - no. Impact - no (tends to implode the top of the seal into the body), pushing by hand - no. Seems to require a lot of force to get it on...

    Running out of options before I have to run down to the bike shop. Already destroyed 2 seals (they should really give you spares) attempting all that. This job is the worst.

    Decided I'll get this one back on somehow and bugger the rest, ain't attempting this again.
     
  8. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    You might need something that is closer to the od of the stem seal like a short lerngth of thick wall tube, the only way you would push the rubber/viton seal into it is if the id of the socket was too small
    Might be able to use a gasket locating dowel off an engine, one for a M6 bolt ? but you would need to remove the taper off one end so it doesnt cut into the seal
    These are stem seal installer tool's for a Hayabusa

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Ok time for some supporting photos.

    Valves look OK, got to check the diameter of the shaft at the higher point as it's visibly narrower than the rest of it. Could be close approaching wear limit.

    15732389_10157978272050716_6805473342838935061_o.jpg

    Seats look pretty good to me, little to no build up except on the underside of the valves.

    15800061_10157978272140716_4503789210802000438_o.jpg

    Ok so here is the old (green) and new (brown). The green ones are buggered, they're all hard and perished and basically crumble when you pull them off. They're probably chinese ones looking at the design and comparing to the 3LN set I have.

    15800328_10157978272020716_2502291862799977557_o.jpg

    So here is where I think the trouble lies...

    15844651_10157978272235716_4658985399909645279_o.jpg

    The old green one appears to be slightly wider. Here's a shot of the brown one sitting on the stem (can't get the darn thing on) and the adjacent cylinder with the "old" green seal.

    15800573_10157978271910716_2969709291209974393_o.jpg

    Story of my life tonight... :(

    15800820_10157978271990716_2147239689516683474_o.jpg

    So, when trying to put the new brown ones on, nomatter what I try this seems to happen. See the internal lining is getting pulled in? This says to me that surely these "new" seals have a smaller diameter. I wish my caliper wasn't buggered because I'd like to prove that theory.

    15775061_10157978271950716_1905570829082283146_o.jpg

    interestingly, I found my new chinese set for the 3LN and tried them. Fit straight on no issue. Hmmmmmmmmm..........
     
  10. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    I found that the locator (that sits on top of the valve spring) when turned upside down is a perfect fit for the seal so I had a flat round bolt and a mallet and was gently tapping the top of that. Didn't work though, ended up stuffing all the lining as per the photo above. I'm intrigued as to why the 3LN set fits straight on with very little resistance... maybe because they're rubber rather than a metal body and are much more flexible?
     
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  11. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Are the OE seal's all rubber/viton ?


    Brown seal's look too small inside to fit snugly over the stem's to me, and are they shorter too ?
    They may have just made up the gasket set by using stem seal's with the correct i/d but didn't check what size the actual guide's were?
    The stem seal's i've fitted to various engine's don't need a lot of force to get get them on, just a light interference fit
     
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  12. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    The seals that are on the head seem to be the green chinese ones, they have probably been replaced at some stage. The brown ones came with the gasket kit but I agree they seem too small.

    I have a set of new chinese green seals I was going to use on the 3LN3 so out of curiousity I pulled them out for a test fit and they snap on with hardly any force at all. So what you're saying confirms my suspicions that the ID of the brown ones are not right. If they were right, they might fit on with a few taps but they shouldn't be messing up the internal coating/lining.

    I am checking with the chinese seller if the stem seals are indeed the same for the 250 and the 400. If they are I'll use the new chinese ones instead as they just go right on with no hassle... I want to ride again I have too many dead bikes now so I need it done hahaha...
     
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  13. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Brown ones are definitely wrong... the green ones are what I used on the 3LN, the old/original ones were green as well.
     
  14. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    So why do you say they're wrong Linkin? is it just to do with the amount of force?

    Do you know if the FZR400 and the FZR250 share the same stem seals? Maybe @maelstrom might know...?

    Ok well they could be OEM as the green ones on the head are brittle and crumble when removed.
     
  15. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Looking at the part number for the OE FZR400 stem seal's it's 1WG-12119-00-00, this seal look's like the one's you have
    The 1WG was the first model 1986 FZR400, i wonder if they changed seals in the later engine's?

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Hmm don't know...

    One thing about the chinese is customer service through Aliexpress is generally good. They got back to me and said they're the same for the 400 and the 250 so guess I dodged a bullet. Don't know what I'll do with the brown ones, already sent that seller a note but I expect because he's british he'll probably dig his heels in on it.

    At least this keeps me going, thank *&@% for that.
     
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  17. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Generally Brown will indicate they are Viton... but your ones (from the new set) do look to be a touch small.

    And I would be lapping them valves in until you have a nice dull, even finish on them all... as well as getting rid of the crud...
    Soda blasting will fix the crud and lapping paste and a lapping tool (suction cups on a stick) do the rest...
     
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  18. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Yeh got nothing to soda blast with.. as for lapping I got all the stuff for that, have done before. Not keen on doing it but should probably just get it done.

    The brown ones have a rubber tip and a coating on what appears to be a metal body (they are magnetic) the chinese ones seem to be viton rubber all through.
     
  19. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Well you have gone this far... an hour or so to lap them in doesn't cost you much...but do it before you put the stem seals on...:)
     
  20. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Truth be told I would expect 250 and 400 seals to be different for the simple reason that there's a 1mm difference in the valve stem diameter, 3.5mm vs 4.5mm

    I'd be checking with the seller
     

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