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OILS AIN'T OILS

Discussion in 'Yamaha 250cc In-Line 4's' started by dave, Oct 2, 2007.

  1. dave

    dave Well-Known Member

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    OK - after a bit of web searching and just for your info, I have looked at the major oil company web sites to see what oils they actually list for my SV and I have listed them with each makers premium grades first..
    I would guess that choices for the FZR would be similar..

    SHELL -
    advance ultra (synthetic)
    advance VSX (semi-synthetic)

    MOBIL -
    Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 (synthetic)
    Extra T (semi-synthetic)

    SILKOLENE -
    Pro 4 Plus 5W/40 (full synthetic ester)
    Pro 4 10W/40 (full synthetic ester)
    Comp 4 10W/40 (Synthetic ester)
    <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.silkolene.com/productchooser.asp">http://www.silkolene.com/productchooser.asp</a><!-- m -->
    <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.silkolene.com/products.asp">http://www.silkolene.com/products.asp</a><!-- m -->

    VALVOLINE -
    dura-blend 10w-40 (semi-synthetic) this is interesting because DURA-BLEND is listed for a lot of motorcycles and not their designated bike oil. Look at the R1, they recommend XLD or dura-blend
    4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 15W/50

    <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/valv_au/default.asp?section=4">http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/valv_au ... ?section=4</a><!-- m -->

    CASTROL -
    R4 superbike (synthetic) supercheap $60
    GPS (semi-synthetic) supercheap $60
    active 4T (mineral)

    MOTUL -
    300V 4T FACTORYLINE 10W40 (full synthetic)
    5100 ESTER 10W40 (semi-synthetic)
    3000 4T 20W50 (mineral)

    <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.motul.com.au/product_line_up/4stroke/4stroke14.html">http://www.motul.com.au/product_line_up ... oke14.html</a><!-- m -->

    I hope that makes your choice of oils easier..
     
  2. dave

    dave Well-Known Member

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    Being a tight-wad and pricing the Valvoline Dura-Blend 10W-40 as recommended by their web site I came up with a local supplier who quoted 5L/$33 or 20L/$125. That works out to just over $8 and $6 per litre respectively.

    Then being sceptical of using a "car" oil, I sent a message via their website contact.. Here is what I said and the reply...

    Dave XXXXXXX has sent an inquiry from the Valvoline Web Site.
    Message: Checked your lube finder for my SUZUKI motorcycle (SV650), it recommends Valvoline DuraBlend Semi Synthetic which is not listed as a motorcycle oil. Is this an error in the software? or, is it a suitable? Dura-blend is a lot cheaper than most comparable "motorcycle" oils.
    Thanks


    Dave

    The Durablend 10W/40 is suitable. You could also use Syngard 10W/40 as well. Both are high quality engine oils that will work well with wet clutches. The motorcycle packaged oil market is more of a niche operation and this is reflected in the pricing.

    Regards

    Jeff


    Tell me now that the motorcycling public doesn't get ripped off..
    <!-- s:-? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_Eyecrazy.gif" alt=":-?" title="Eye Crazy" /><!-- s:-? -->
     
  3. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    Absolutly that is 100% true that there is essentially no difference between car oil and motorcycle oil. When I started using 'car' oil (actually oil used in marine, cars, heavy transport, agriculture) and questioned the manufacturer he said he could draw a bike on the front of it for me- cause that's all Motul do for a premium price.

    Any oil that contains friction modifiers should not be used in cars or bikes, and I believe there are no longer any sold in Australia any more.
     
  4. _M_

    _M_ New Member

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    what do you use brad ????
     
  5. FZR Dude

    FZR Dude New Member

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    You had to ask.... <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_roll.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling LoL" /><!-- s:roll: -->
     
  6. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    sorry _M_ I didnt realise you asked

    I thought everyone here knew? PM Lubricants of course!
     
  7. natas

    natas New Member

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    I use castrol 4t but am thinking of changing. I have heard that mobil 1 gives a bike that extra kick that was missing with mineral based oils. What are other people putting in their bikes.
     
  8. dave

    dave Well-Known Member

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    Mobil 1 appears to contain more anti-friction additives so you have to think about whether that will be an issue with the clutch.

    Castrol 4T is the bottom of the line "bike oil" and would break down quicker than a "semi-synthetic oil". The gearbox is what destroys the oil, and the synthetic viscosity modifiers seem to withstand that better.

    There is nothing wrong with using 4T but it would be better if replaced at a lower KM. This tends to be the issue, low grade cheaper oil changed more frequently, or, a better, more expensive oil less frequently. In practice most people stick to the standard service intervals, so they would be better off to use a better oil.

    I am about one one decent ride away from my 12,000km service and have already bought 5L of the "CAR" oil I mentioned up the page (Valvoline Dura-Blend) for $35, which is enough for two services on my bike.
     
  9. natas

    natas New Member

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    I am going to replace my oil with shell advance VSX (semi-synthetic) oil. I think this costs about $30 which is only a few dollars more than castrol 4t. Would love to put a full synthetic in but do not want to pay that much and am concerned about the clutch slipping. Have had this happen on other bikes and requires a day to make a tool to reomve the clutch and clean the clutch plates up.

    I was told by mobil that bike oil has a different code on it that signifies car and bike oil. Has anyone else heard of this.
     
  10. dave

    dave Well-Known Member

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    I used shell VSX on the last oil change but will be using the Durablend next. I will be doing the change tommorow night all being well. What oils did you use last time that made the clutch slip?
     
  11. natas

    natas New Member

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    It was about five years ago, I had and and still do have a cx500 (honda). I think I put castrol GTX2 or 3 in it. Any way I think it needed new clutch springs which I replaced but the oil definately made the clutch slip. From then on I have only put castrol 4t in all of my bikes. The fzr thing was something that I always wanted. A 250 4 cylinder pocket rocket.

    Recently my brother put mobil 1 in his firestorm and he has been raving on about how good it is ever since he put it in. This has made me change my mind about oil companies. I only ever put castrol in everything that I owned, this was due to the specks at the time. But now I want to look after my machinery better and put some better oil in it. I am a 5000km oil change man, this goes for car and bike.
     
  12. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    Anything will outdo Castrol or Valvoline based on superior additive packages and load carrying ability/ shear resistance.

    Mobil once was among the best, if not the best.

    The thing with Anti Friction Modifiers is that they wont make the clutch slip, so you are quite safe in most choices you can make, although some bikes are a little picky as to which ones it likes to run on. And this doesnt mean fzr's, cbr's or zx2r's, I mean individual bikes based on its individual history
     
  13. natas

    natas New Member

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    Interesting Brad could this be due to engine wear and tear. Possible climate or the viscosity of the oil. Can you elaborate on this because I am about to change oils. One thing I have noticed is that motorcycle oil has a MA after the specifications. I think that car oil has a MB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  14. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    Basically comes down to wear and tear. An older clutch tends to be more picky.

    Not sure about the MA/ MB thing.

    If oil is blended to how it should, there is no benefit in devising a specific bike, car or marine oil.

    eg. Each additive package has its abilities, such as ZDDP (ZDP). ZDP, among other things, has the ability to greatly reduce wear when metal parts touch, and has a great anti corrosion properties.

    The oil I use is the same blend as used in everything from marine to heavy transport. As well as extending motor life, typically works well with clutches, in some cases improving the slip.

    But not in all cases- a ZXR 750 or 900 (cant remember which one) using heaps of oil, went onto a heavier weight than I'm on, stopped using oil. Originally had clutch slip, but did not get better or worse.

    Conversely I have heard of a bloke with a VFR750 that had a slipping clutch- he only noticed it after buying it. The oil reduced slip enough that he kept it for some time and didnt end up replacing the clutch. And he rode quite hard from what I hear.

    Hence some old clutches can be picky. I havent heard of new clutches causing issues though.

    The only new, premium oil I have heard of possibly causing issues- royal purple was used by some americal kawasaki racing team. Apparently they found issues with the gearboxes in the new ZX6RR's. How reliable this info is, and what the actual cause of the problem is, well that's debatable.
     
  15. natas

    natas New Member

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    As oil buyers do we look at the specifications on the bottle or do we just look at semi-synthetic, synthetic or just mineral based oils. And buy our oil based on this. If you look at the specifications I think some people would be shocked at what specification oil they are putting in their bikes. Motul 5100 was the lowest spec oil that I looked at. Shell VSX4 has a spec of L while mobil 4t has J. The higher the letter in the alphabet the better the oil.

    So what is the difference between mineral, semi-synthetic and fully synthetic. Mineral is the rawest kind and the chemical composition is extremely uneven (different sized chemicals). Semi-synthetic oil has smaller amounts of different sized chemicals and a blend of same sized chemicals (synthetic oil). Then you have the ultimate fully synthetic and has the same sized chemicals. Mobil even has this thing called buccy balls which are carbon based molecules that are sphere shaped, these are extremely tough and theoretically never wear out while providing the best lubrication.
     
  16. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    Just a couple of things-

    The higher the letter, does not mean it is a better oil. For example, One rating was introduced for the benefit of catalytic converters. So that is just a little off track. Not far, though. Now, the problem is these ratings are not always true. For example, the use of ZDP which contains predominantly Zinc and Phosphorus was to be limited for oils to reach this classification, however much documented proof has been produced showing low volatility oils containing higher concentrations of ZDP cause no more damage than high volatility oils containing low concentrations of ZDP.

    True synthetic is not all they've cracked up to be. To this date, mineral oils are still outperforming synthetics in the major attributes affecting wear, particularly in high pressure, high heat environments.

    Most synthetics people buy are literally mineral oils refined to the point that they are allowed to call them synthetics. Some of these, along with semi-synthetics, do contain some synthetic additives blended with the base stock.

    As mineral oils are refined further and further, these free radicals are removed, providing a far more stable oil than the old classification oils, ie. What standard passenger vehicle oils were way back when.

    People changing from Motul oils to a certain mineral oil in bikes consistantly say the same thing- less oil burn, more power, less vibration. According to the media, this is impossible. But its true. Those same bikes are recording far lower wear particle rates in oil analasys.

    Synthetic VS mineral is one thing- a clear (ish) divide in the sand. The next problem is, how have they developed their product? What are the additive packages blended with the base stock, and what properties do these give the oil? That oil, from way back wen they used to sell it in steel cans, had very little or no additives. This oil was volatile, weak, extraudinarily poor in comparison to todays standards.

    I can confidantly say that everything I have seen portrayed in the media in favour of synthetics is, quite simply, false and misleading. Just as misleading as 'intellegent molecules'. And the idea of synthetics lasting longer is also untrue. Synthetics typically last longer than other supermarket oils because those other oils are typically not developed to a purpose. They are developed to a price. Sorry Brocky, your ad explaining the benefits of synthetic VS mineral were, well wrong. But I know the scrip was just written that way.

    Infact, it never ceases to amaze me in how many categories synthetic falls down compared to mineral.

    I have read about these lubricative balls, and didnt think they were even close to being introduced. Last I heard, they switched to carbon, because in testing the titanium they originally used were lasting too long. And you dont want that, because creating a need is what multinational corperations do well. But the idea, I believe is sound. I would like to do a lot more research first, but the idea of a solid ball between 2 metal surfaces acting as bearings is interesting.

    Oil choice is very difficult. Media tells you which is the best. Bike shops tell you which is the best. Trouble is, they all either have a vested interest, or they are misinformed. And that mis-information is passed onto the consumer. So which one to chose? That is really hard without saying what people expect me to now say.

    I was reluctant to change onto a virtually unknown brand, which is not marketed in the general media. However, since doing so I can safely say I would never use any other. I was very lucky because I was given a sample of their products from a mate who was given some by a mate who races bikes and uses their products exclusively. I was even luckier because being close to me I could see their evidence first hand, which made me think it may be worthwhile. Luckier still, because they took the time to explain why theirs works better than others, and even offer to pay back what I had spent if I found no benefit. So history, for me, was made.
     
  17. natas

    natas New Member

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    Hi Brad,

    Very interesting information. These buccy balls actually do exist, although there is always a down side. They are hard to manufacture and oil companies will place only one or two of these into a 4l container of oil.

    On the actual balls, I can't remember how long they are, as in how many carbon chains long. Think of these as old school soccer balls. They can not be broken easily and no amount of pressure or heat from an engine will destroy them. On a chemisrty level carbon has four points at which different elements can attach to it. Hydrogen is the other chemical that loves to attach to carbon, hydrogen has two points that other elements can attach. So you have a central carbon that is attached to four hydrogens (Carbon surrounded by hydrogen), The remaining hydrogen points attach to other carbon molecules and the chain continues until a sphereical shape is obtained.

    The big question is what will happen when we hit peak oil?
     
  18. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    Yes, that IS the question, isn't it!

    We better start playing with ZDP and peanut oil!
     
  19. motoride

    motoride New Member

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    Did an oil change the other day and used Penrite HPR 10 Gas as was recommended by their website at a cost of $37 for 5 litres.

    Was previously using Motul 5100 and PM oils are rather expensive and hard to find (Sydney Northern Suburbs) as I don't have a credit card to order online.

    Anyway the bike feels a bit more responsive <!-- s:alcoholic: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_all_coholic.gif" alt=":alcoholic:" title="Alcoholic" /><!-- s:alcoholic: --> ....maybe!!!.
    The other significant improvement was it fixed my supposedly leaking valve seals!! woooohooo!

    Well that is all, just wanted to post as I really don't like the "poser" tag under my name <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->
     
  20. brad1

    brad1 New Member

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    Ah, that's a pity. Dont need a credit card to order PM- I just do a funds transfer

    But yes, it's amazing how even Penrite outperforms Motul, the great racing oil that just about all bike shops carry
     

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