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The "Build Quality" Debate

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by Joker, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    During the rounds I have noticed one particular topic that keeps resurfacing, this little concept called
    “build quality”. I imagine this stems from the interest in the recent influx of international manufacturers into the motorcycle market, which is putting the heat onto our long serving American, Japanese and European manufacturers.

    So what is "build quality"? To keep it simple, let's assume it is essentially product quality - which is normally measured by customer satisfaction. Customer satisfaction is pretty subjective, hence why "quality" has many measures.

    I believe there are three main components of product quality:

    (1) The quality of the product design
    (2) The quality of the product assembly
    (3) The quality of the materials used for the construction of the product and its components.

    The first is a no-brainer. Bad design equals poor performance. The thing you build has to actually work for you to be able to sell it as the thing you claim it to be.

    The second is what most people refer to as "build quality", which I believe is an incomplete definition. If I put a box of lego and some instructions in front of my 7 year old, given some time she would be able to assemble that object just as well as I could. So let's extrapolate this principle. Assuming similar skills and conditions, you could assemble a motorcycle pretty much anywhere in the world and achieve the same result, right? Of course you could. So why is that 5 year old chinese bike rusting to hell and breaking components while my 30 year old Japanese bike is hardly showing its age? The answer may just lie in item (3).

    To start with, let's take a look at some basic engineering of stainless steels:

    Capture.JPG

    Probably the most common stainless steels are 304 and 316. So you can understand the table above, 304 stainless steel is typically about 18.5% chromium, 9% Nickel and 0.06% Carbon.

    Adding Carbon - Lowers corrosion resistance
    Adding Molybdenum - Enhances pitting corrosion resistance
    Adding Nickel - Improves stress corrosion cracking resistance
    Adding Chromium - Improves overall resistance

    In summary, by changing the ratios of the elements in the steel, you are essentially changing the steel's performance (primarily the mechanical properties). This is important to understand because to keep steels within ideal composition tolerance limits it is simply more expensive to manufacture. This can be why the same grades of steel from Australia (compliant with the stringent Australian Standards) can perform differently to those manufactured elsewhere (eg China).

    To an extent you could argue that China has cheaper labor hence its steel is cheaper. This is only a minor influence though, as within steel manufacture the cost savings are in refining the composition of the steel itself and how well those components are machined to their tolerances.

    So in terms of build quality, you must consider three things:

    1) The Design
    2) The Construction of that Design
    3) The Composition of the Components (including tolerances) and Materials Used for that Design.

    This isn't meant to be a swipe at any manufacturers though. Designs can be shared, the right instructions with similar skills can result in equal construction, but the cost savings are in the tolerances and composition of the components.

    Conclusion: You get what you pay for.
     
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  2. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Working as a fitter and turner (now fridgy apprentice) I can tell you metal coming out of china and India is poor quality
     
  3. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    That's it right there as good as the design, machining and assembly is, it means nothing if the materials don't allow the design reach it's full potential.
     
  4. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    There is also plenty of marketing BS I think all riders have to sift through when purchasing bikes.

    So many companies get paid to review bikes and when they do, they are expected to give "good" reviews. If they didn't, how could they expect repeat business? If you ever read "professional" reviews, anything bad is usually softened or played down so that the positives at least equal the negatives. And this is where people get fooled into believing that the "build quality" of some bikes (a term used so freely yet not entirely correctly) is somehow at the benchmark of other bikes. This is a blatant misrepresentation, but may not necessarily be intentional - and does not apply to just bikes.

    For example, one of my friends purchased a 2005 Hyosung GT250R. Nice enough bike to ride, I enjoyed taking it for a spin a couple of times. But for a bike 18 months old (at that time) it (1) snapped a clutch cable (2) had moderate pitting rust on the wheels and the fork assembly and (3) snapped the springs in the front shocks. He sold it shortly after the third occurred, although it was warranty related the future prospects weren't making him feel comfortable. In contrast, I bought a 1992 Kawasaki ZZR250 for around $2K less than him. Absolutely no issues, I couldn't even find any rust. I'm not saying this will be the same for everyone but here is a classic example of differing "build quality".

    Just something to think about. It took many years for "Jap Crap" to stop being crap, and I anticipate it will take other manufacturers similar amounts of time to achieve the same result. Until then, choose wisely.
     
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  5. zixxer

    zixxer Well-Known Member

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    my zxr is older than i am and still looks better and goes better than any new chinese bikes will.

    plus after talking to people who work on bikes for a living i wouldnt touch a chinese bike, not worth the hassle. Although i have heard some good things about them (from people who owned them) i have heard a whole lot more that is bad (engines seizing, bearings going after afew thousand k's, general shittiness) but i think this may have something to do with maintenance and the crowd who buy them aswell.
     
  6. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    Great post Stu, I agree with your commentary on the quality of materials, currently the chinese build to a price, just like the Japanese did in the 50's and 60's, lets face it, Price dictates quality.

    I think the issues with build quality (assembly) are not nearly as bad as they were 10 years back, the issue as I see it is the quality of materials being used and the quality of after sales service. The only way our Asian friends (except for Japan) will florish is to setup their own dealer networks maintain spares locally, this comes at a cost but Hyosung have done it and continue to hold a reasonable market share.

    What does scare me is that when we see improvements in quality and reliability of these manufacturers and they invest in dealerships, the market will eventually follow, just look at the Great Wall 4x4 ute, they are cheap and cheerful but I do see shedloads of them on the road. What happens when the chinese take 10% - 15% of the worldwide market for new road bikes, will the big 4 be able to survive ? will we still have factory teams in the MotoGP \ World Superbikes or will they have to pull their investments in racing to stay afloat or will they sacrifice quality of their bikes to keep up...

    Take the new CBR250\300, single cylinder made in Thailand..... In my opinion Honda have sacrificed design quality and reputation by calling using the CBR moniker on a single (CBR should have 4 pots), at best this 250cc single should be a CB250 or CBF250.

    Interesting times ahead
     
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  7. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    These are sales figures for road bikes in Australia for Q1 (Jan - March) 2014, sucks to be Kawasaki and Suzuki at the moment.

    data.PNG
     
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  8. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Which is funny because Suzuki drz range was most popular for years I had one and never had a drama guess times are changing
     
  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    In 1954, well before Japanese motorcycles were even nicknamed "Jap Crap", Soichiro Honda had issued his declaration to win at the Isle of Man. What follows is an extract, and the full text can be found here http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/Man-TT-Declaration/ It is an enlightening read into the DNA of Honda Motor Company.
    ********************
    I address all employees!

    Let us bring together the full strength of Honda Motor Co. to win through to this glorious achievement. The future of Honda Motor Co. depends on this, and the burden rests on your shoulders. I want you to turn your surging enthusiasm to this task, endure every trial, and press through with all the minute demands of work and research, making this your own chosen path. The advances made by Honda Motor Co. are the growth you achieve as human beings, and your growth is what assures our Honda Motor Co. its future.

    The scrupulous care that is required when tightening a single screw, and the commitment that refuses to waste a single sheet of paper: these are what will open the way before you, and prepare a route for Honda Motor Co.

    ********************
    Bushido was obviously alive and well. So while the management of the British motorcycle industry were resting on their laurels and plundering the profit, the Japanese were bristling with determination and purpose. The general consensus at the time was that "Jap Crap" would never amount to anything. Why was that the common view? It was based on what we knew of Japanese products, toys and plastic goods that had been produced by post war Japan as it tried to grow out of its ravaged state.

    History has a way of repeating itself. The parallels between post war Japan and post Mao China can be seen. Obviously China is coming off a much lower base as Japan was already well advanced before the war. Even now most Chinese people are just trying to make a living, and will do whatever it takes to achieve that. If that means making some cheap and nasty products for an American company that ordered cheap and nasty products then that is what they will do. In the same way that somebody ordered those rubbish plastic toys from Japan that we used to see as kids. We can also see that the same pattern of development occurred in Taiwan and South Korea.

    The rise of China is far from over. When will we see a good motorcycle from China? When someone with the same determination as Soichiro Honda stands up and leads a motorcycle company to success. Honda could not just say "We have been making motorcycles in the most advanced country in the world since 1903." like Harley Davidson (would anybody buy a Harley Davidson if it had "Flying Dragon" written on the fuel tank?). The only option was to take on the competition on the race tracks of the world and beat them. If Hyosung entered the Moto-3 world championship, thrashed the competition and then released a range of 250s based on their winning bike what would happen to their sales and their reputation?

    We live in interesting times. Electric bikes are just around the corner. Have you seen the Tesla Model S? What if Elon Musk decides tomorrow to build an electric motorcycle? How long before an electric class is added to the world championship? Right now you can order a one off part for your motorcycle over the internet and it will be 3D printed from Titanium and delivered to your door. It costs the planet now, but the price can only go down. The only constant is change and the rate of that change just keeps accelerating.
    cheers
    Blair
     
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  10. TechHeadFred

    TechHeadFred Well-Known Member

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    Excellent thread, I look forward to seeing it progress! :)


    I knew there was a reason I liked Hondas, other than growing up on the back of one. :p
     
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  11. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    The other thing you have to consider regarding build quality is the way the company is run. For example, there have been several well known manufacturing innovations to come out of Japan, such as KAIZEN and KANBAN.

    KANBAN is a manufacturing control system built around "Lean" and "Just in time" manufacturing. It is basically an system devised to maintain high production efficiency, and its effects flow into systematic measures to maintain product quality.

    KAIZEN is a mainly a lean manufacturing method with drivers founded in continuous improvement. It is a mentality taught to everyone from production level to senior level, with some focus on specialization and standardisation of tasks. It essentially creates "experts" in particular manufacturing processes or procedures, so rather than being a "jack of all trades and a master of none" people are much more capable of achieving and maintaining high quality and efficiency by focusing on fewer areas and optimising/refining them. It's very clever and I'm a big advocate of it.

    It shows how far Japan has come though, they're a clever nation and the way they run manufacturing businesses has in many ways set the benchmark for the rest of the world. They pride themselves on quality, and if you've ever worked with a Japanese arm of a business you will quickly understand how pedantic and particular they are about getting things done right. It definitely lays the expectation that what they manufacture is now close to, or as good as, they're ever going to get it. Because if they haven't got there yet they'd certainly know what they have to do to get there. It may be hard to fathom, but if any nation "lives and breathes" quality, it's them.
     
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  12. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Excellent point Stu and one that I was going to raise; the culture of the nation concerned and their attitude towards quality.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  13. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    Except when building nuclear plants
     
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  14. physicist

    physicist Active Member

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    I rather suspect we cannot build ANYTHING that would withstand the most powerful earthquake ever recorded!
     
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  15. Phil

    Phil Senior Member Contributing Member

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    Totally agree, mother nature is so powerful.
     
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  16. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

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    We are going a little off topic but just to clarify ..... the very basic but very BIG mistake was putting the emergency generators below sea level behind the tsunami wall .....instead of behind the reactors up the hill a little ...... which is where they build the schools up a hill if possible, to help save lives but more importantly to save the next generation.

    Of course the most important thing in an emergency is to cool the reactors .... bit hard when the generators are under water.
     
  17. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Great post Stu and nice thread. Interesting looking at Kiffsta's sales chart...CF MOTO makes a 250 automatic cruiser the was/is sold in Australia. If you ever look at the welding on their early bikes (sold as ARQIN) I would go so far as to suggest Stu's 7YO daughter could do a better job! Maybe the decline in their sales is a reflection of people deciding cheap doesn't necessarily mean cheerful.
     
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  18. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I think the decline in sales has more to do with economic worries than build quality of the bikes. Things are a bit tough in the bike selling world at the moment. One local dealer has closed and another is cutting franchises, and a third would not still be going without selling cars as well.
    The quality argument has many sides, but all things are built to a price. We complain about cheaply made stuff not lasting, but we didn't pay much for it and expect it to last like an expensive one. The expectation of the quality of a product must be taken in relation to its price, and therefore the lasting ability, before we denegrade the country of origin or the manufacturer. Countries like China can make good stuff, but are we prepared to pay for it or do we have the expectation that anything 'Made in China' is cheap, and therefore crap?
     
  19. risky

    risky risky

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    china builds to the customer specification. more do ray me the higher the quality. people buy on price and we have a disposable society.many buy on appearance and not durability.
     
  20. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    I think you've made an interesting point there Murdo. But I think it just may be a little more far-reaching than that. When you're dealing with products, although price is a factor - it is not the only factor. Clever marketing can also drive up, or maintain high prices. Price is a reasonable benchmark of quality but you also have to be careful you're not paying for a brand. Take Harleys for example and their high pricing. Is a harley bike a better quality performer than say a suzuki boulevard of similar capacity? I would argue not. But the Harley's have an image and trademark sound about them, and that's one of the reasons you pay more for them.
     
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