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Circuit Racing The future of motorsport

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Racing and Track Days' started by jmw76, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Now I know that some members are very anti electric stuff, but I thought I would just put this out there. Not specifically motorcycle related. At least not yet.

    If you have the time to sit through this entire audio pod cast, you might find it informative.
    It does stimulate some thoughts on where this technology may actually take us. The proposed thoughts on a different type competition sound interesting.

    Personally, I like the focus on the flow on of R&D. Real bleeding edge technology.

    https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/po...il&utm_term=0_2565529c4b-9e7bd28b59-266496429

    Peter.
     
  2. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    I often wonder who is really driving the transition from petroleum to electric vehicles, but when you look it it on face value, our days of buying petrol based vehicles is numbered. I have read that some countries in Europe will no longer allow the sale of petrol based vehicles past 2030, motorcycles are excluded from that target.

    Some of worlds biggest companies will be put on notice, Ford, General Motors , Volkswagen, bmw etc are in for a big wake up , as more and more bespoke companies release vehicles to the market. After watching long way up, with Evan McGregor, I am super keen on something like a Rivian. What scares me is that they are so technology driven, let’s hope apple , Microsoft, intel etc. stay clear. I do know apple invested heavily in driverless ev’s, but the project was mothballed.

    there is a real buzz in developing electric bikes, l have supplied swingarms, suspension, wheels etc and complete bikes to a number of qld based small companies who are trying to develop their own electric bikes. I even suggested using panniers as additional battery packs that could be swapped in and out to increase the range., this guy was like “ brilliant” , now I have to design a swap out system for panniers.

    I think we are only a few years away from machines that will have a 500-750km range on a single charge , once that mark is hit, it will be a trigger for a wholesale change to electric vehicles.

    I think the biggest challenge when they disrupt fuel based vehicles will be where you charge your bike and car, electricity is not cheap so would you allow your mate to plug in if he pops around for a beer ? Would your boss be okay if you plugged your car and bike into the wall while you are at work.
     
  3. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Chris, after listening to the podcast it made me realise just how close we are to having totally driver-less transport.
    Within a few years the fastest thing around a race track will be a vehicle without a human at the wheel.

    The podcast poses the thought that in future motorsport competition, there is likely to be an increased focus on rewarding the engineers and other technical members of race teams as the driver becomes less important. The primary competition will be between AI development teams. At least that is how the RoboRace fraternity see it.

    I agree that EV technology has already come a long way and the technology is evolving rapidly. Once someone cracks the recipe for the perfect lightweight, high power density battery the internal combustion engines days will be numbered. At least for regular use. We need to hold onto our dinosaurs as they become more collectible classics.

    You should do the sums one day on the fuel/energy costs for EVs. I remember doing some calculations on a friends Tesla experience. The actual energy costs to run an EV are surprisingly better than available liquid fuels. The big problem is the charging time and the infrastructure required to charge quickly.

    If you are into technology, there are going to be some fantastic opportunities available to solve these problems.

    If you are into technology and want a glimpse of the future, then the podcast is worth a listen.

    Peter.
     
  4. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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  5. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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  6. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    The UK (all 4 individual Countries) have agreed that no more Petrol (possibly diesel as well) will be sold from 2030. I think this is pretty much like Bob Hawke saying no child will live in Poverty by such and such year.
    In countries that have embraced Nuclear and renewable sources (massive fields of wind turbines) are to some degree better suited to Saving the world by going EV but we here in Australia are continuing down the line of mostly Coal fired or Gas fired Electricity production.. which isnt sustainable for a start and is a major cause of Greenhouse gasses.
    The purely $$ cost of operating EV's is probably mostly on par with our current fuel costs but as infrastructure needs to be improved for renewables (Solar and massive batteries) Wind (They are a blight on our countryside) and more Hydro then energy costs will rise.
    You also need to look at the environmental costs associated with Large scale battery manufacture.. there are again... limited resources for current technology and new technology isnt keeping up with what the World is demanding in terms of sustainable, renewable and environmentally acceptable battery manufacturing technology... Plus, batteries currently have an effective life span of around 10 years and then they are discarded and need to be disposed of.. not good for the environment.
    So still a very long way to go if you ask me before we are ready to toss out our Petrol engined cars etc.

    I have to laugh at everyone talking about going Solar to be environmentally friendly and saving money.. The environmental cost of producing solar Panels is massive... Most Solar Panels come out of China these days and they are not really interested in being environmentally friendly. The other side is that the panels have about a 10 year lifespan with gradually diminishing power generation of that period... the Inverters will also have a similar lifespan either through failure or being surpassed by superior technology... so the continued cost of possibly every 10 years changing Panels, updating inverters and replacing batteries outweighs any "savings" to a large degree of that period.
    We have customers who want large Solar Pumping systems and the payback period (including rebates etc) is in most cases over 7 years minimum.. They are not a good commercial decision and that doesnt even take into account the land surface the Solar panels occupy. That would normally be producing a crop or feeding livestock..

    If you follow F1 at all... they are now looking at what power units they will use from 2026 onwards... the current power units are the most efficient engines ever produced with the ICE having an efficiency of above 50%. This is up from 29% at the end of the V8 era... pretty impressive in a 10 year timeframe.
    They are now looking to continue to use Hybrid technology and will most likely champion the use of 100% Bio fuels that are 100% sustainable and renewable.

    Lucky that I am an old beggar and will most likely not have to worry too much about not being able to hear a V8 engine at full song etc... as opposed to the whine of an EV.... I think I will be ashes well before we get to that stage.
     
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  7. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Have a listen to the podcast. It is more about artifical intelligence than EV technology. Some interesting insights into what should be possible in the motorsport arena.
     
  8. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I am a tech guy. 42 years in IT. What scares me is that people currently drive vehicles. It is just a matter of time before tech will allow us to save many lives due to it being better at driving the vehicles.

    Let's hope some of them are better than most of the stuff we have seen so far.
    If I had the money to spare (ie. If I was filthy rich) I would buy the VINS. In my opinion everything else is awful.

    I just ordered the fairing for my electric motorcycle project. It should be here in January and so I will be able to start doing a mock up. I am really hoping that it fits around the FZR250 3LN frame. It will be very close. I have two frames so that I can modify it if required to try things out and then when it is all worked out I can do it to the one that I will use. I am not talking about big changes, just little things like the 1mm each side where the NSR250 MC28 swingarm mounts. The original fairing mounts at the steering head will have to be removed to make room for the CX125 Mono-fork.[/QUOTE]

    That is why I will be getting the batteries after everything else is done.

    I am in Canberra and my electricity is cheap. We have had a Labour Greens coalition for years and they used Renewable Energy Auctions to fund our 100% renewable energy supply. I took up the free offer to have a smart meter installed and it has reduced my electricity cost further.
    Looking to the future when the Aus electricity supply is all renewable and 300% to 700% the size of the existing supply I can see it is likely that electricity for domestic and small business use will be free.

    My wife has had her Generation 1 Nissan Leaf for 7 1/2 years. Costs are much lower than fossil vehicles. Even taking into account battery replacement. She recently took advantage of the Nissan offer to replace the battery even though the range of the old one was still ok.

    The batteries are not thrown away. Her battery went back to the manufacturer to be combined with others for it's next use which is not in a vehicle. The new Tesla tech gives over a million miles. After that they will be recycled as it is cheaper to extract the materials from the used batteries for use in new batteries that it is to extract it from the ground.
     
  9. kiffsta

    kiffsta Senior Member

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    I am a tech guy. 42 years in IT. What scares me is that people currently drive vehicles. It is just a matter of time before tech will allow us to save many lives due to it being better at driving the vehicles.

    I do get what you are saying , the fundamental issue I see with driverless cars is that many of us actually like driving , if we all drove plain Jane hatchbacks then the argument would be easy , but we have plain Jane cars and we have sports cars , utes, SUV’s that we choose to buy as they serve a purpose and invoke passion.

    the change to driverless cars will have to be generational , once people don’t know what they are missing , then the adoption rate will be there. For me , I see driverless cars as an invention that can address many safety concerns , but I am not lining up anytime soon, driving cars , riding bikes is a passion , it makes me smile and makes me feel alive
     
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  10. mboddy

    mboddy Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I get where you are coming from now. We have a passion but many do not.
    Most people with plain Jane cars and bikes will be quick to change to an autonomous subscription service which is a 10th of the cost or less of what they are currently paying and provides them other benefits.
    Enthusiats like ourselves will be like horse riders are today.
    I hope they still allow us to use the roads.
     
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  11. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    I like the thought about using AI as a training aide. It would be beneficial to be able to follow an identical AI ridden motorcycle around a race track to be able to improve your own skills.
     
  12. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Statistics pffft
    The statistical comparisons of self drive vehicles claiming that they will save lives are based on comparisons to morons. I am not a moron. I do not continue to drive if I am feeling sleepy, I am prepared at all times for an accident to come to me, I never drink and drive etc etc. Thus, the statistical comparisons are complete nonsense as usual. If you want to use them then say 'Self drive vehicles will lower the accident rate of morons'.

    Roads have not been designed for self drive vehicles.
    There are no sensors on the road for them to respond to. Hence they use radar, cameras etc. In other words it is a fudge. There is even one idiot in the US distributing a version you can make yourself using your iPhone. Too funny, makes me laugh that people are so stupid.
    Boss: Hi, we want to make the cars self driving.
    Employee: Okay we could try that. Give me the road sensor specs.
    Boss: Sorry, there aren't any. Can you just fudge something? You know, use your iPhone or a camera somewhere.

    Like all IT disasters (I studied it as part of my software engineering degree), the law of unintended consequences will bite you on the arse. Exhibit A: Boeing 737 Max (another fudge). No human on Earth can ever program any stupid piece of software to cover all possibilities that could lead to an accident on the road. That is just the software, now on the hardware side electronic junk is not infallible. It is also cycles to failure like everything else, except when electronic garbage fails it can fail catastrophically (ask Ducati why Jorge Lorenzo's bike seized at Buriram and broke his back). When it does, all the supporters of this crap will say, "Oh we didn't consider that this might happen, but it doesn't matter because the death toll is no worse than before." The part they won't tell you is that now we are saving the lives of morons and killing more innocents. All of this will be enacted into law soon because politicians love nothing better than justifying their otherwise meaningless existence by writing new laws, especially when they can virtue signal that they are saving lives.

    I have edited this response multiple times to try and offend as few as possible. :)
     
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  13. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    @maelstrom I understand you sentiment, however, we need to keep an open mind.

    Smart technology has just progessively crept into our lives. Today we take a huge amount of it for granted. Mobile phones, internet, gps, efi, abs, auto brake assist, auto-pilot in planes, cruise control on cars. So much of this is just demonstration the evolution of AI.

    In the pod cast there is some discussion on the number of sensors we as humans use when driving a vehicle. Primarily we use our stereo vision (eyes). How long do you really think it will be before machine vision and the associated AI can surpass human capabilities? On top of this vehicles have access to technology which we as humans do not possess (lidar, radar, high precision gps, etc). When you factor in all these sensor/information sources, it is not hard to imagine what one day will be achievable. The AI in a vehicle can be optimised to drive. It doesn't have to do a million others things like us mere mortals. Modern fighter jets are essentially un-flyable without the AI/control systems they have.
    Application of AI to the motor vehicle is going to happen. Its application to motorsport seems like an ideal r&d platform.

    60 years ago you needed a super computer to beat the masters at chess. Today an app on your phone has the same capability.

    As long as we are still able to get pleasure out of riding/driving our classic toys I am sure many of us will still be happy.

    Yes, it is a generational thing. I have no desire to ride around in my daily transport where I need to continually adjust the spark timing and mixture settings. I am sure that future generations will similarly not be interested in steering and navigating in their daily transport machines.
     
  14. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Who in their right mind would want to watch AI controlled motorsport?? They are continually trying to bring parity to all forms of motorsport to allow the "Driver or "Rider" to be the most influential part... if there are no Drivers or Riders then what the hell would we be watching?
    The $$$ generated by Fi and Moto GP are because people want to see the best machinery operated by the best pilots.. pure and simple and for them to make errors or their machinery to fail etc.
    Could AI do what Daniel Ricciardo did when he won at Monaco. He had massive power issues with the MGH but he was able to adjust his driving and lines and braking on every corner for 2/3 of the race to stay, not only in the lead but to pull a gap when needed.. the "human element".
    Sure... you could probably program an F1 car to go as fast or possibly faster than LH in his AMG or the same with a MotoGP bike but... could it do it for up to 2 hrs, with varying track conditions, 19 other similar vehicles all with similar technology.

    I also dont believe that in Australia Driverless vehicles will be of any use... ever.. we dont have the infrastructure to utilise them, we are too dependant on ducking down to the shops etc and as we are "still" a very decentralised country it makes no sense to have anything other than drive yourself...
    Yes... technology marches on but it also fails as well.. (Boeing 737 Max) and then who do you blame? Who is at fault in a driverless car accident??
    Hopefully I wont see any of this rubbish in my lifetime.. I think there is a limit to how we should use Technology and we are probably past that now.. What will be next Cyborg Soldiers... if you need soldiers that is..
     
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  15. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Well I knew this might stir up some emotion.

    There have been some great points made but the fact remains that there is a new generation out there looking for something different. During the covid stuff, v8 supercars played around with virtual races. Now, although of no interest to me, apparently there was a sizable following of the series. So much so that, it is likely to feature in v8 supercars plans for the future. Believe it or not, some sponsors (the source of all motorsport funding) actually see some real benefit in targetting a new audience.

    Although a number of us older blokes might see it as nonsense, there is a generation that certainly doesn't.

    It might actually be interesting to see real competitors battling on track with the best of the AI vehicles.

    I am sure that the next generation will think of all sorts of ways to make this new era of AI motorsport entertaining. Even if it never actually reaches the point of replacing driver/rider controlled vehicles.
     
  16. James Mclaren

    James Mclaren Active Member Contributing Member

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    I can appreciate all these points of view, but I’m gonna just be bone headed here and say it’s a flat no from me!

    I know all to well it’s coming and like most things it’s under the premise of safer and cleaner etc etc, but at what point do we stop making our own choices and just become ameobas. Like seriously look at everything around now to create ease of living, it’s made people lazy and just consumers . You see it every day and I’m not afraid to openly say , how many times do you see someone and think “stop making that guy” like yes I understand he’s loved etc etc family blah blah but what actual value are they adding and that’s deemed ok now!

    as for the racing side, I been racing from a kid right through to now, and there are two things electric can’t do that no matter what the purists of the sport will never adhere too! It can’t generate noise or the smell! How many times you walk to the speedway and the smell and noise hits you first , or the backfire of a down change , mixing your own fuel or the tears and burn of a fueler cracking the throttle ??

    it is what it is, yes it’s coming, but even f1 is to tech now and not exciting , racing as a sport needs to show case talent for most , even in the virtual sense it’s talent that gets it round a track hopefully never an algorithm
     
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  17. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    Yep fully support that tech tends to make us lazy. But we are all looking at motorsport from the wrong angle. It is NOT always about the driver/rider. FSAE/Formula Student has successfully focused on the engineering/innovation aspects and the team as a whole.

    I am just saying that adding AI into the motorsport mix provides an avenue for the techno nerds to compete. It does not mean that the human factor will be eliminated completely. It is just another type of competition. Just like NASCAR is different from F1. They cater for a different audience.

    The attractive thing about RoboRace is that it provides a real avenue to explore the limits of technology and provide a pathway to prototype future production ideas.

    In the past, F1 and MotoGP have provided a similar platform, but I feel a lot of this has been lost as the rules have changed and more emphasis has been placed on the entertainment value. The costs have become so high and the rules so tight that real world applicable innovation has been diminished.

    Moving in a new direction may just open up that real world innovation opportunity again and encourage lower cost participation.
    From what I can see, it appears that Universities are attracted to the RoboRace concept. It gives students (with fresh ideas) an opportunity beyond FSAE to make a real contribution.
     
  18. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

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    While I've been laid up from my accident I have been using a kind of auto vehicle to get to doctors, etc. I ring up and wait out the front of my house and the vehicle arrives, I get in and tell the 'pilot' where I wish to go and the vehicle takes me there. Some are fossil fueled and some are electric but both do the same job and transport me to where ever. I pay a fee at journeys end and the vehicle waits for the next customer. Some call them taxis.
    So I ask WHY do we need all this new tech to get out bodies from one place to another?
    Is it a case of something we really need to sustain our lives on this planet or are some of us just showing off to be smarter than the rest of us?
    Re the electric argument; I remember reading years ago when the Toyota Prius was a few years old where some boffin had done a full lifetime energy/pollution study and concluded that all the energy involved in making the Prius with its precious metals and special bits, the electricity produced from coal to run it and the energy required to recycle all the bits at end of life of the vehicle was more than an F150 truck, which could be melted down and used again. (Things may have changed since then so don't quote me.)
    The electric cars of the early 1900's (remember the first land speed record was electric) were let down by batteries of the time and until someone developes a 'safe' battery for cars/bikes they will be restricted to shorter distances (ie cities), and that is where we really need them to be most effective (pollution wise) but the problem then becomes getting the electrical power from generation station to city and delivering it on a grid made in the 1930's (with up dates) to the charging points.
    With the new crop of full electric cars, why do they not have the roof and bonnet/boot covered in solar panels to charge batteries while they sit in carparks at shopping centre/work?
    I know all this smart tech is coming to our everyday lives, but I still enjoy the sound/smell/feel of riding my fossil fuel bikes. :)
     
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  19. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    There are plenty of examples of current (fossil fuelled and Human controlled) series contributing and challenging students to come up with innovative solutions... F1 has for many years held a challenge to high school students from all around the world which requires engineering skills, teamwork and innovation.. Aussies have won it a few times as well.
    As for explotring the limits of technology.. really, you believe that F1 and MotoGP dont do that now?? Yet they still get quicker despite the powers that be trying to slow them down... and would Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, Honda, Ducati, Yamaha etc all be spending the $$ they do if there wasnt feedback into their production system... while you may not see a 1000HP F1 engine in a Mercedes right now you will see (well you wont see it) a passing down of the electronics involved in these power units... how to blend and distribute the power from heat recovery and regenerative braking, not to mention all the electronic advancements on Bikes from major manufacturers and their suppliers.. such as Brake technology, suspension technology, Aero and safety...

    Racing is entertainment... but it also improves the breed, provides rapid development of theories to make the car or bike faster, safer etc.
    Maybe RoboRace can do the same but it wont provide the massive (read millions and millions of viewers worldwide) audience that is needed to sustain the likes of F1 and MotoGP. Maybe it has a place much lower down the pecking order along with intro series and Go-Karts (yes even they have advanced through engineering over the years).
    As for a mention previously about "E Series" for V8 Supercars... well these have actually been around for a few years.. for F1 and V8's as well as a number of other high profile Racing series.. they are not AI but are Simulators that can be full motion to an office chair and a desk (with steering wheel etc) The circuits are fully GPS scanned and surfaces mapped for friction values etc and the vehicle dynamics are also highly accurate. None of that is AI..it is all down to Humans... behind the wheel and the ones that know how to make 0's and 1' turn a bunch of electronic bits into a very powerful computer.

    I also saw that f1 has helped a hospital in Europe (cant remember where exactly) to streamline their procedures in Emergency Rooms by studying how an F1 Team (Mercedes I think) perform and practise Pit Stops and not get in each others way... They collaborated with the F1 team and swapped lots of data etc to help save more lives.
    I mean they constantly now change all 4 tyres in 2 seconds or less... that is from when the car stops moving till it is moving again..

    So is AI the future of Motorsport... maybe in some dark distant future... but certainly not in my lifetime... at least not mainstram motorsport.
     
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  20. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    My Bike:
    Honda cbr250rr mc22 road + 1 track, Honda RC 162 tribute bike, Honda Spada Vt250, Honda CBR900RR
    This article started as an expose of Artificial Intelligence in motorsport. Although EV drive systems are being used, AI could be applied to any drive technology.

    Unfortunately, the real argument driving AI technology in general transport today is purely based on operating cost. Nothing else. Why do you think Amazon is so interested in AI. The largest cost in most forms of transport is unfortunately the human behind the wheel. Elimination of this single component will drive transport costs down. Personally, I think it is morally wrong, but I am not in control.
    Where ever there is a buck to be made/saved, someone will take advantage of it.
     

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