1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Project The Second Fizzer

Discussion in 'Your 250cc Projects' started by Joker, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,313
    Likes Received:
    2,383
    Trophy Points:
    898
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Panel Beater, Spray Painter, Custom Fabricator
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha's , 1990 FZR250R 3LN3 , 1986 XT250TS 57R , 1984 IT200L 43G, 1976 IT400C 510
    Yeah there is a ball bearing on the end of the shaft between the clutch push rod and the adjuster on the outer clutch plate, the adjuster is the 10mm headed nut and the adjuster is a JIS screw.
    You loosen the nut, turn the screw in till it just get's firm, then back it out a quarter turn and hold it while you do up the locknut.
    I just checked my spare engine, and the clutch arm can turn 360° if the clutch isn't on the end of the gearbox.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    Ah that explains it. It was turning 360 degrees before I took all the plates and the pressure plate out, but I did find the ball bearing. I wonder what is going on in there. May have to dig a little deeper to check all that.
     
  3. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    Well I decided after seeing a few youtube videos and photos to test a theory on my rusted parts bike tank. So I proceeded to coles and bought $1.20 worth of cheap white vinegar (2L to start with).

    IMG_3744.JPG

    I then sealed up the base of the tank with some bits of various tapes so it wouldn't leak (but I put it over a plastic container anyway in case it did:

    IMG_3745.JPG

    I then dumped in all the vinegar last night and left it overnight until I got home around 5pm today. I grabbed the longest screw driver I could find and put it through the fuel inlet to scrape the bottom of the tank...

    IMG_3771.JPG

    Didn't even need much force at all. Amazing, it certainly exceeded my expectations. I reckon a few more litres are on the cards to fill the tank up (it hasn't leaked yet!) to give it a good soak before I fill it with nuts and bolts and shake the crap out of it... I reckon I'll have all the surface rust out ready for re-lining.

    Smart buy afterall I guess haha
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    So I extended this test to carburetor parts... an overnight soak a brief (and light) scrub with a soft scourer in hot water and...

    14590523_10157527407310716_3226391608615157850_n.jpg

    Good as new. Why didn't I know about this before... what a ridiculously cheap way of parts cleaning. I've even got the carby bowls soaking in vinegar now and the stains/residue is rubbing off with my finger... can't get over it!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,225
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    exercise caution with the carb body in vinegar - the plug below the pilot jet orifice in the float bowl is a strange crumbly aluminium prone to disintegration
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. GreyImport

    GreyImport Administrator Staff Member The Chief Contributing Member

    Messages:
    10,914
    Likes Received:
    6,708
    Trophy Points:
    1,168
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Between a Rock and a Hard Place
    Location:
    North by NW NSW Oztralia - Tamworth
    My Bike:
    *Kawasaki ZXR250C *Yamaha FZR250R 3LN1 *Yamaha FZR400 *Triumph Bonneville 750 T140V *Triumph Daytona 675 *Triumph Tiger 800XC
    You just have to read the right threads :lolsign:


    http://2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/my-fizzer.872/page-3#post-6279
     
  7. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    lol probably.

    Any experience with chinese head gaskets/kits guys? Can get a set for like US$20 which doesn't sound too bad...
     
  8. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    2,870
    Trophy Points:
    943
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2014
    Location:
    Sydney NSW
    My Bike:
    FZR250R 3LN6
    Test fit chinese gaskets when we did the pistons & rings on the blue virgin fizzer. Base gasket made from asbestos and did not seal. Head gasket did not fit around the locating dowels on the head. Personally I'd only use genuine head/base gaskets. For eveything else on the bike, the generic ones are probably good enough.
     
  9. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    Geez getting throttled on NBN is a pain, could hardly do anything...

    Thanks Linkin, good info. Was considering taking a gamble if I needed to but will think twice now. I spoke to a few people who had done engines who suggest if the gaskets are metal they can simply be re-used... I wonder what the risk is, especially if you're changing bottoms/bores/heads around. They seem to have a film of some sort in places that probably acts as a sealing agent (mostly peeling off in places now) and I don't really want to go throwing goop around to replace that (with that said I'm sure if you're good with the goop it must work OK because that's essentially what it's for).

    Few more photos. First one, have seen this idea before for the 3LN3+ "longer shaft". It's a JT sprocket with a washer behind it. For my original fizzer I just bought two lock washers and pounded one flat, works fine - as obviously the case here too.

    14721477_10157548291700716_2635035714845647443_n.jpg

    I was having a look at the shaft, @Linkin @GreyImport @Grasshopper did you guys actually measure the length of the shaft end to end or did you just measure the protrusion out the side of the engine? The reason I ask is because I noticed that inside the engine cover is a little raised bit which "pushes" the shaft from the clutch side through to the gear lever side. Obviously the height of that raised piece determines how far it protrudes out, so I wondered if the reason the shaft is "longer" outside the engine is not because the shaft is physically longer but it is just "pushed" further by the engine cover? I'm sure you've probably looked at that and have an answer, I don't have a 3LN1 to compare to so just thought I'd ask.

    14721761_10157548291165716_5408016205251848370_n.jpg 14570353_10157548290600716_7316287512497811198_n.jpg

    Anyway so you guys may recall the engine casing had some damage to it. Using the "high heat" JBweld epoxy putty I started the repair in two sections. I supported it with some metal tape from the inside and used a screwdriver/scraper to provide a bit of support for something to "push against" then with the putty in place I pulled out the metal tape and gently caressed the inside of the casing making sure it wasn't protruding or was going to hit anything.

    14502787_10157548291405716_3817593320208278401_n.jpg


    First wave fully cured...

    14572828_10157548291435716_4730589966445330304_n.jpg

    Second wave. Hard as a rock, looks pretty good now I think. The below was prior to full cure hence the colour.

    14671322_10157548291180716_491999085671231542_n.jpg

    Next step is to measure up the bores and pistons to see if there needs to be any work before re-use. They look pretty good to me but I don't have precision instrumentation nor am I a machinist so am going to seek some professional advice. Last thing I want when I put it back together is blowby, low compression or oil pouring out of the engine joins.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,504
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Albury 2641
    My Bike:
    1987 Yamaha SRX250, Honda 1974 SL125 K1, 2022 Triumph Tiger Sport 660
    That repair with the JB Weld looks pretty good... Once fully cured and a little sanding.. smoothing and some paint and you would never know...
    I wouldn't be trying to re-use head gaskets... the "goop" is designed to provide a liquid seal and the metal (generally several sheets) crush down to the correct height when the head is torqued down...
    A used gasket will crush further if re-used and potentially lead to failure.. coolant leakage etc.
    You could possible get away with it as an emergency use with some Copper head gasket sealant but I wouldn't risk it...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    I'm also wondering what I could "wash" the bottom end in. I'm eyeing off a bath in kerosine only because that's what I did back in high school before rebuilding an engine. Not sure if that would do anything to seals etc, everything I read says it should be OK. Good way to flush out whatever's left inside and get the outside all shiny too I guess.
     
  12. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    6,397
    Likes Received:
    4,785
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tamworth, NSW
    My Bike:
    1937 Royal Enfield 250, CF Moto 250 V5, Honda's XL250, CBR250, FT500 plus a few others.
    Kero wont hurt the seals unless you leave it soaking in it for a few days. I wash engines in it too.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Andych

    Andych Moderator Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,504
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Albury 2641
    My Bike:
    1987 Yamaha SRX250, Honda 1974 SL125 K1, 2022 Triumph Tiger Sport 660
    Kero or even white spirits will do the job... I used to use that back when I did my apprenticeship, stripping aircraft hydraulics and cleaning them down for refurbishing... long before any real safety concerns so gloves etc were not something we used.
    These days... I would certainly wear gloves if your hands are going to be in contact with the cleaning liquid... :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,225
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    +1 for kerosene
    shellite is also a great non-polar (non destructive) solvent, both kerosene and shellite form the majority of a product called seafoam, which we can't get here.

    Diesel is also a great cleaning liquid and cheaper than kero
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    So worked with a very experienced machinist to see where the bores were at today, measured both sets. All bores were round and all measured 48.01mm which is the most precise we could get but is "in spec" still as not at service limit. Probably means it's somewhere between 48.000 and 48.01 if we could measure it a bit more precisely. Some staining but no major wear in any areas that we can see so should be good to go with new standard rings, no other work needed which is good. Have a spare now so that's good to know.

    Still trying to decide on the most cost effective way to get some kerosine. I'm considering just filling a 5L drum with Diesel and giving that a go as well, especially considering it's readily available.

    upload_2016-10-18_18-58-55.png

    First line is cylinder head expansion
    Second line cylinder expansion
    Third line is the cylinder bore opening
    Fourth line is the service limit for the bore opening
     
  16. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Contributing Member Ride and Events Crew

    Messages:
    6,397
    Likes Received:
    4,785
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tamworth, NSW
    My Bike:
    1937 Royal Enfield 250, CF Moto 250 V5, Honda's XL250, CBR250, FT500 plus a few others.
    Diesel would be fine.
    Kerosene is very expensive if bought from supermarket/Bunnings. If near an airport you may be able to get some jet A1 drainings (once fuel has been in an aeroplane then drained out for maintance etc it cannot be put back in again, must be discarded) which is Kerosene with some fire retard additives if you take your own drum and ask nicely.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    Location:
    Ireland
    My Bike:
    FZR250r and YZF-R1
    diesel is brilliant for cleaning, i use a diesel/kerosene mix for unseizing stuck bolts and whatnot, its absolutely magic
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    Yeh I do live near the airport, but with the hassle of melbourne airport I am thinking I might give diesel a go first...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    3,225
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    918
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    +1 for diesel you will not be disappointed - wear gloves :D
     
  20. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

    Messages:
    2,737
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    Trophy Points:
    798
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Switzerland
    My Bike:
    SV1000SK3
    So having a good look at these existing gaskets (between bottom end and bore and between bore and top end) I’m pretty confident it’s a single sheet of metal - not to be confused with graphite gaskets which are multiple layers and are compressible. So I believe they aren’t compressible (certainly not with the torque we would put on them by tightening engine bolts) and are definitely reusable in that sense. Even if they were somehow made thinner under compression it would just mean re-tightening the engine bolts to suit, the clearances you’d be dealing with would be so small and insignificant but may be enough for a very tiny/slow leak if care isn’t taken (seepage, warpage etc).

    What I don’t know is what the sealing/film material is that was on them, and how you would replicate/replace that as I assume that is what forms the oil/ air seal. The manual says to use a new one, which I will do for the head gasket but the bottom gasket I am toying with a very small layer of high-heat silicone (designed for head gaskets). Given the area is just above the sump and outside of the piston chamber (and away from coolant) I think it’s probably low risk. Just “thinking out loud” a bit though, anyone else have any experience/advice? I could be going down the completely wrong direction (but I hope not!)

    Half the sellers from China don’t even know if one of their gaskets (normally the lower one) is asbestos or not, I’m starting to question if they even know what asbestos is – so they must just be resellers. I think going OEM for the head gasket is a safe best but wow… expensive!

    Got to get a set of rings too, Chinese rings will minimise spend and I think they should be OK. I am not keen on doing all the crank bearings because they seem fine and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, right?
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page