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Info VTR 250 vs VT Spada

Discussion in 'Honda 250cc Twins' started by Gizziracer, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Just serviced the new vtr carbs and brakes.. My#%^* goodness there is a terrible difference in servicibility between these 2 models! The Spada carbs can be on the workbench in around 10 mins.conversly the bloody coils have to be removed, breathers, idle air control valve removed.on the vtr.before you even get to the carbs. I pity anyone who ever has to re jet one of these engineers nightmares.. does any one know what the air control valve is for? Is that to suck all the horse power out that vtrs loose to the Spada? Will it burst into flames or refuse to proceed if I remove it altogether.. seems like so much unnecessary claptrappery

    image.jpg
     
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  2. Andych

    Andych Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Probably emissions control.. :)
     
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  3. Frankster

    Frankster See the World before you leave it Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    That's sounds like a good task...find out if you can get more power out of that engine by removing factory/emission crap and improving fueling etc. Seems odd that it's so down on power compared to the Spada. Are you planning to fix and flip the VTR or keep it?
     
  4. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Just quoting the claimed factory hp exaggerations, VT 250 spada 40 hp,,,, 2005 vtr 250 32.. I actually like vtrs,,,, once i get used to the awful mechanical layout I will ride it for a while then probably sell it... but you never know,, Have to build it to a non written off frame before I can proceed, hopefully begin by the end of this week.
     
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  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I've done carbs on a Spada, but I have a VTR to look forward to doing carbs on.. I liked the VTR, hence buying this one. 5 speed is better than the constant shifting of gears in a 6 speed (like my current ZXR with standard gearing).
     
  6. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    The VTR its really not that different but it just becomes really obvious how much cost cutting and lack of serviceability resulted in the change from VT spada model to the vtr ducati copy. For a company like Honda, which started out producing numerous shameless copies but became a highly innovative design leader, to go back to producing an over priced yet bargain basement copy that the VTR most certainly is, is a curious corporate decision. I'm sure the Honda share holders aren't too worried given the vtr's success in the market place but reputational damage is sometimes difficult to measure. Lucky they have MR Marquez on the payroll to balance things out. Even removing/replacing the rear brake master cylinder cap is way more fiddly. Increasing the likely hood of the owner accidently wiping brake fluid onto the frame rail. Just so many backward steps on this model but I guess many owners don't go much past checking the tyre pressure in their own maintenance practice so poor servicibility is sort of irrelevant as they zoom around imagining they are on a Ducati. I vastly prefer the 6 speed gearbox to the 5, and again, which gearbox would have been cheaper to produce?
     
  7. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Well if they are copying a Ducati, then it should awful to work on, like a Ducati!
     
  8. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    There can be absolutely no argument Honda copied Ducati in the design and styling of the vtr.. They even went so far as to copy the lack of a tacho that the first ducati monster also missed out on. No taco on a big thumping v twin could be understood to a degree but on a small, high reving motor like the VTR its inexcusable. Both bikes were bargain basemant specials, Ducati just changed the bodywork and footpegs/handlebars from their sports bikes which was a stroke of genius to cash in on the street fighter fashion emerging in the early 90s and some suggest this saved Ducati from bankcrupcy. No shame in pinching stuff from your own models but Honda just looked at the Ducati Monster and said, "We'll have some of that" . I'm wondering if any money changed hands under the table as it was such a blatant rip off Ducati surely would have been able to claim some type of copyright infringement. I cant help seeing this as behavior more attune with a chinese motorcycle startup business than a manufacturer with such a proud history as Honda. I really still have difficulty comprehending how Honda came to this decision and what battles happened in Honda management at the time but as I said previously I'm sure the Honda share holders weren't too concerned.
     
  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Well Ducati never made a 250 variant so Honda did it for them. I think the VTR is a great looking bike and I couldn't care less that it is a copy of a monster. I wish Honda still made the VTR and I would have bought one last week instead of the toy Yamaha XSR155.
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Well-Known Member Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I did test ride a VTR250 for Linkin once and found it very boring to ride (must be used to 4 cyl sports bikes and the like) - but that's just me. I told him not to bother, then he bought the ZXR250 at the time. I also enjoyed riding his Kawasaki Ninja more...
     
  11. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Yes, Ducati created an aesthetical masterpiece when they designed the monster and the VTR :)
    I wouldn't have bought one for the princely sum of $120 if I didn't like them:) Its just that working on it is bringing back all the stuff I'd forgotten from the last 2 I have restored. Virtually every mechanical task is more difficult than the equivalent task on the spada and I'm Guessing the spadas VT 250 predecessors. And much of it just smacks of rushing a design to market with too little thought and planning and really underdone mechanical design. I'd love to find out the time difference between when ducati first exhibited the Monster and the release of Hondas VTR, Weeks, Months, definitely not long enough
     
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  12. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    5 years, the first Monster in 1993. What I find surprising is that manufacturers keep producing hideous bags of shite even after decades of proof that the public doesn't want them. Hopefully I will live long enough to see the end of the 'Transformer Toy' look.
     
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  13. Frankster

    Frankster See the World before you leave it Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Well, this is an interesting thread. Some mention has been made of the VTR, its predecessor the Spada and the bike that started it all, the VT250F. So, if I may...

    The 1982 VT250F was a "wow" bike when released. It wasn't a copy of any other bike. It was very original. Honda chose to install a hydraulic clutch (a first for this capacity of bike), a 6-speed gearbox, oil/air shocks, inboard front disc and a monoshock rear swingarm. And powered the bike with a water-cooled, 4-stroke, DOHC, high-revving narrow-width 90-degree v-twin making about 35hp at 11,000rpm. The whole thing weighs about 145kg and it wouldn't scare any 2-stroke from the same time. Now, most people know I'm a fan of this bike, but you may not know how much of a pig I think they are to work on. The list of "WTF were they thinking?" moments is long and sometimes unusual.

    The VT250F went through a few generational changes before moving to the Spada (what a frame) and then eventually to the VTR. Given how good (and IMO beautiful) the Spada frame was, why would Honda go to a trellis unit? Answer...because it looked like a little Ducati. I guess sometimes form wins over function and vice versa.

    My point is that Ducati made a beautiful bike, so why wouldn't Honda make a small capacity clone of it? As @maelstrom said, Ducati weren't going to make a 250cc Ducati, so why should small capacity bike riders miss out? @Gizziracer mentioned the Honda shareholders and that's the point. The VTR was a hideously expensive 250 when it was sold here. It has taken ages for the second hand market to make this bike "affordable". It's very rare for humans to be original, so copying is always going to be a thing. When Suzuki brought out the Gladius, journos were calling it a Ducati clone (which it certainly looked like to me). Imitation is the highest form of flattery, so Ducati should be very proud.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  14. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    I like the Gladius too but I would fit the round headlight from the SV650, which also is a classic IMHO.
     
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  15. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  16. Frankster

    Frankster See the World before you leave it Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    My last "off topic" post... I promise! Speaking of copying style and trends...

    A mate was at a Shannons Auction recently and sent me this pic. He's not a motorcycle guy, but knows enough to be dangerous... asked me if this was a Ducati with Indian stickers on it?

    Shannons Indian.JPG
     
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  17. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    I would not want to ride pillion on that stupid seat, but who cares right, so long as it is fashionable.
     
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  18. Gizziracer

    Gizziracer Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    If I had to ride a contemporary American bike I could live with that Indian. The thing about them is they exist without much of the bad boy, bullshit image that permeates their competition. Probably much to their eternal frustration.The old Harley 850 sportsters were also not bad bikes that did nothing particularly well but we’re an ok package. Just so, so expensive for such an ordinary bike.
     
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