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Help Acceleration Issue - 1990 ZXR250R

Discussion in 'Kawasaki 250cc In-line 4's' started by Sweeks, Aug 28, 2021.

  1. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    that’s good news!
    I have emailed them to confirm that they will work on a 1990 model.
    They list a different part number than the numbers I found on mega zip
    Does anyone here know if ‘A’ and ‘C’ models are the same dimensions?
     
  2. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    thanks, I may look into Ferrea.

    the ones that I see on eBay are made in china, I worry about the quality of those.
    True, I am using Chinese rings, but poor quality valves at 15000 rpm may cause a catastrophe
     
  3. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    Thanks Justin,
    I just ordered them
     
  4. Frankster

    Frankster Grey Pride...Adventure before Dementia Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    I would say the valves are. The bore and stroke is slightly different and so are the TCI units for each model, but the cams and head should be interchangeable.
     
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  5. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    How much is it costing you to get the liners plated? New OEM liners (For C models) were available at about $100USD each last I checked. They are press fit into the cylinder block, with an o-ring to seal them from the cooling passages (I had an FZR 250 with a broken o-ring that would get coolant in the oil).

    Glad that you have found the problem.

    It's worth cleaning your cylinder head combustion chambers to check whether the alloy is cracked between valve seats and spark plug threads. My C model had cracks on every pot. 2nd hand head was garbage so I ended up pressing the original into service, just lapped valves, light gone on the cylinders and new rings - and a lot of cleaning to remove all the carbon.
     
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  6. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Nikasil, going all in then. So you are coating the cast iron sleeves? Who is doing the coating? @ruckusman & I have been doing medical experiments with a big bore kit idea on the FZR250 and Nikasil is one of the options.
     
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  7. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    If you're going Nikasil have a look at advanced sleeve for alloy sleeves - much better thermal transfer - you won't find them via a google search and for plating NZ cylinders comes highly recommended although you're in the US so Millennium are the business over there

    There is also a host of bigger bore pistons which might be suitable if you know where to look - ask away - need, pin diameter and compression height
     
  8. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    Somewhat of a reply to the three recent posts:
    ‘A’ models have a different bore than ‘C’, I haven’t found any liners for an A.
    The original pistons are in very good condition, so it seemed that plating the cylinders was a logical way of adding material back to the cylinders and boring back to standard.

    While building my KR250, I had the cylinders Plated, and also Plated my F9 Bighorn when building it.
    When I owned my automotive engine machine shop, I was a dealer for Millennium, so I get a small break on cost.
    I was also a Wossner dealer and considered searching for an existing piston, but plating and re-ring is simpler for me at this time.
    I sold my shop and retired two years ago and am just spending the time to get all of my bikes in very good condition.
    I haven’t been able to ride this bike with its full power, but hope to soon.
    This is a fairly rare bike (SP) in the States and I plan to keep it stock for the time being.
    I really appreciate all of your help.
     
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  9. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    OK, plating will likely work to get you back to spec clearance - have you considered L.A. sleeve, or Advanced sleeve for iron liners, alternatively you could bore it to 49mm, which is I think C model spec bore

    C Model pistons
    https://en.impex-jp.com/catalogs/mo...-36-ke-japan-8469/cylinder-piston-518778.html

    https://en.impex-jp.com/parts/new/search.html?partNo=13001-1366 - listed as available from Impex

    The cylinder head part # is 11008-1260 which is listed for both the A and C model

    A model:
    https://en.impex-jp.com/catalogs/mo...white-dz-japan-8431/cylinder-head-515749.html

    C model:
    https://en.impex-jp.com/catalogs/mo...white-hg-japan-8427/cylinder-head-515423.html

    So the combustion chamber and corresponding piston crown shape should be consistent between them
     
  10. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    Next issue:
    Cylinders and head are ready and on their way back to me.
    Corrosion required.010” removal from the cylinder block and .005” from the head surface.
    The base gasket is.010”, so may use two base gaskets to correct.
    That leaves .005” to deal with.
    Has anyone here milled .005” from their cylinder head and encountered issues ?
    Or, has anyone found a thicker head gasket.
    Thanks for your help
     
  11. jmw76

    jmw76 Well-Known Member

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    I can not imaging that 0.005" off the head is going to make a significant difference.
    Sure the CR will go up a small bit, but I doubt that it will cause any issues with clearance to the piston/valves/etc.
    If the engine has some miles on it, the valves have probably settled a little further into the head (particularly if they have been lapped in at any stage) which will reduce the CR a little and give a little more valve to piston clearance.
    I would expect that Kawasaki would allow some clearance for general engine refurb work during the life of the engine.
    Provided the rest of the engine is in good shape, I doubt that you will run into clearance issues.
    Just run good oil and fuel.
     
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  12. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    So Millenium coated the iron liners with Nikasil? Care to share how much that costs?
     
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  13. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    0.005" is 0.127mm, which is a lot when you consider the fine tolerances required in these engines.

    The only way to know for certain is to assemble and test with some plasticine on the pistons and then measure your piston to valve clearance. I would also fit spark plugs while doing this to make sure the pistons aren't going to kiss the plugs either.

    These pistons are not flat topped and already have recesses for the valves, if clearance is insufficient you could easily have the recesses machined further to provide some more clearance, if necessary.
     
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  14. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    Cost me $715.00
    LA Sleeve quoted $800.00 to make new sleeves
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  15. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    It has all new valves.
    Under some circumstances, one would think that .005” is not a problem.
    I don’t know the (from new) head thickness, combustion chamber cc’s, deck height, etc.
    Some manufacturers will not allow “any” material removal.
    These engines rev near 20k rpm, and have unknown (to me) tolerances. I’m afraid to take a chance.
    The plan is to mock it up and check the clearances.
    I was just hoping that someone here had actually resurfaced one of these heads and whether they encountered any issues.
    Thanks for your reply
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  16. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    I agree that you need to be careful before shaving off 0.127 mm. $715 is very reasonable. So running the standard chrome plated top ring is no issue?
     
  17. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    Update:
    It took a while to get the correct valve shims.
    Got it finished, took it out for a short ride yesterday.
    Seems to be good, I will keep the rpm’s down for a few hundred miles.
    At idle, there’s a little noise which sounds like the timing chain.
    I replaced the chain, guides, tensioner spring, all new Kawasaki parts. Maybe the noise is normal?
    It revs smooth, but it has a big dip at about 6000 k, then goes nice.
    I used the standard 250 carbs for now instead of the SP carbs.
    Also, have the stock exhaust.
    I will install the original carbs later, then the Aftermarket exhaust to see the effect.
     
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  18. Sweeks

    Sweeks Active Member Premium Member

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    So… what is the cure for the big hesitation at 6k ?
    It runs good, just the crappy bog at 6k.
    I have read for a long time and it seems several people have experienced it.
     
  19. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Disclaimer, I don't own a ZXR250, never ridden one either, so I'm shooting in the dark.

    I was chatting with @Frankster about his ZXR250 turbo project, anyway looked at the ignition curve [from the service manual IIRC] and there is a sharp rise to ~50 degrees @ 5K RPM [it lowers back down] - I am assuming that is to alleviate something off resonance at that RPM, airbox &/or cams

    So with that said, a 6K RPM hesitation may be down to carbs.
    Are the needles adjustable?
    I'm wondering if it's a transition point on needle taper and too rich or too lean.
    @Linkin has been through thoroughly these bikes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
  20. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    The hesitation on mine was at 7k RPM with a large, open exhaust. at 7,000 you are at half of peak torque (14,000) which I put down to the usual torque dip experienced with a 4-into-1 exhaust made worse by 'extreme' cam profiles and an open exhaust. I was toying with the idea of grafting an EXUP from a Yamaha onto it but never got past the idea stage.

    Looking at mine on a dyno, it made only 37HP and was ultra rich at 7,000, and rich in general.


    As for noises, I was never able to sort out the rattle mine had. Tuned, balanced and adjusted to within an inch of its life. Brand new clutch basket with back gear and all (mainly for the rubber/spring dampers). The last thought was it could be the positive neutral finder mechanism rattling without load, but never tore down to confirm. But @Frankster s A model experienced the same thing, no 2nd gear lockout on A models.

    When put in gear and engaging the clutch, noise disappears.

    Timing chain noise is more of a scraping noise that gets better the higher the RPM goes when unloaded, and comes back with a vengeance on deceleration / throttle down. The tell is marks on the inside of the cam cover where the chain runs.
     
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