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Discussion Fuel injection and turbocharging

Discussion in 'Yamaha 250cc In-Line 4's' started by ajb235, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. ajb235

    ajb235 New Member

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    I posted this in the wrong section, being a bit of a newbie!
    Well I have enjoyed my FZR250 and 18,500 rpm this year, but now I have to replace the cam chain, so I'm looking at few winter mods before next year, fuel injection and a turbo.
    I am scouring Ebay for throttle bodies, but what size and will they fit? 600cc 4 cylinder bikes but which one? Or may be build up a bank of 4 from a YZF125 or 2 pairs from a 250 Ninja.
    I will be using the Megasquirt or Microsquirt ECU module.

    Turbo, I think there is one small enough out there if I can find it! There's plenty of room in front of the FZR engine, so nice short header pipes possible.

    Very early days, but any experience or advice appreciated.

    Ta

    Jim
    Leeds UK
    Yam RD350YPVS/RGV hybrid
    Yam FZR 250 standard at the moment
     
  2. dontz125

    dontz125 Active Member

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    http://feralinjection.com/index.html

    http://www.mbe-motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/265

    The trigger wheel for the FZR isn't directly compatible with the Mega / MicroSquirt boxes; I'm developing an adaptor / pre-processor for native support of the wheel. For that matter (further out), I'll be working on a 4-channel spark / EFI box designed to be plug'n'play with the FZR family based on the MicroSquirt Module.

    One of the issues with adapting TBs is low-flow characteristics. Almost all modern bike TBs have a secondary butterfly that closes to increase the effect of the primary butterfly. The early R6s had vacuum-operated slides like a CV carb; the current R6s have a single drive-by-wire butterfly operated by the ECU vs engine speed and throttle position. An idea I have in mind is a kit to allow the stock carbs to accept adaptors for injectors; something that needs more thought.
     
  3. ajb235

    ajb235 New Member

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    Thanks, that's a really good start for me. Please keep me posted on the ECU that you are developing.
    Re Carbs and injectors, I was thinking that you could blank everything off except the pilot circuits and utilise the throttles as in a TB.Vacuum diaphragm and slide would still function, with needle removed. All linkages would be as stock, only other thing would be a TPS on the shaft somewhere. But still a lot of thought required!

    Like the turbo too.
     
  4. Okibi

    Okibi New Member

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    Any updates?
     
  5. Speedpro

    Speedpro New Member

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    I'm now using an Ecotrons Kawasaki 250 Ninja kit on my FZR based engine. I only have cylinders 3&4. The throttle bodies plug straight in and the triggering seems to be identical to the Kawasaki as I haven't changed anything and it all works. The only mod I've done is to slightly flatten the water pipe out of the head where it comes up between the intake ports so it clears the throttle linkage. I've only revved it to about 8,000rpm so far as I've been unable to locate the correct generator rotor to fit properly on the crankshaft. You may be able to get away with a 2nd TB on cylinders 1&2 with a 2-way throttle cable and run the injectors in parallel. With the cost of the system you could nearly just run two systems but with a single fuel pump. With the injectors supplied so far it seems OK but I have a long way to go before I know just what's required. Worth checking out if you are getting sick of trying to sort out the carbs.
     
  6. ajb0235

    ajb0235 Active Member

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    Hi, bit of a long shot, but how did you get on with this?
     
  7. ajb0235

    ajb0235 Active Member

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    I've reincarnated the FZR250 fuel injection, possibly turbo, project. I'm inspired by the new Kawasaki Z250 4 cylinder bike whichh must have fuel injection. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has gone down this route with the FZR or any 4 cylinder 250, in the last 9 years.
     
  8. beano

    beano Well-Known Member Premium Member

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  9. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Do you still have your 3LN from year's ago ?


    @shadowrg had a thread here a couple of year's ago where he used the injection off an EX250 Kawasaki onto his ZZR250 2 cylinder bike using a Microsquirt V3 ECU, might give you some idea's
    https://2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/the-project-begins-zzr250.8857/

    Then there's @Murdo and @Frankster they've been playing around with a Kawasaki ZXR250A inline 4 cylinder Turbo running an SU carby and getting it ready for some Salt Lake racing/ Land Speed record's
    https://2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/zxr250a-the-wasp.10135/page-2#post-116652


    Some other stuff here with a 166hp FZR250 Turbo
    https://2fiftycc.com/index.php?threads/166hp-fzr250r-turbo.10543/#post-124174
     
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  10. ajb0235

    ajb0235 Active Member

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    No, I sold it! Regretted it ever since. Looking for another 3LN now.
    Nothing quite like them, screaming along at 19000 rpm!
     
  11. ajb0235

    ajb0235 Active Member

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    upload_2019-12-30_15-30-39.jpeg

    This was my bike. Sold in 2014
    Thanks for the links
     
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  12. Mike Green

    Mike Green Member

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    I was previously Speedpro on this forum but forgot the login and password and my email has changed. My little 125cc turbo project was starting to show promise. It was reluctant to rev and I found out why today. The installed height of the valve springs was 1.5mm too long. Pretty annoyed after the amount I spent having the head refreshed when I first built it. I am now using a Link Atom ECU. Highly recommend them. They have a great support forum with experts from all over the world answering questions. My new engine is 3LN based. I'm going over the head and cylinders in minute detail and it is very interesting what I'm finding. It will be worth your while to completely dismantle the head and put it back together properly cleaning things up as you go.
     
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  13. ajb0235

    ajb0235 Active Member

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    That's interesting, please keep me posted on your development. Does the 125 twin now Rev to 20k like the 250 four?
     
  14. Mike Green

    Mike Green Member

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    I'm not planning to rev it that high. Probably stop at 18K. Max power is around 14K in stock trim. Initial dyno graphs suggest it will make good power well beyond that. The dyno run before It dropped valves it made 32.35hp and was increasing quickly. Stopped the run due to valve float. I have the new head at NZ Cylinders at the moment. They are going to machine the valve seats and valves to make sure they are 100% correct. Once they have the tooling it will be a good option for others. I've looked at a few heads and all of them had valve issues.
     
  15. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Interesting - I've been in touch with Grant from NZ Cylinders about getting sleeves for 52-54mm bore installed for the FZR

    That was on a recommendation from @maelstrom
     
  16. Mike Green

    Mike Green Member

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    Going bigger in the bore will open a can of worms. The ports will flow pretty good for a 62.5cc cylinder but when you up the size I think you'll find they get a bit restrictive pretty quick. Having said that there are improvements to be made to the ports, valves, and seats that will improve flow. Coupled with a cam upgrade it might end up being OK. Ports are relatively easy, valves and seats not so much. You also have to worry about the mass of the pistons and the increased loads on the rods.
    I've been surprised at how little measureable wear there is in the stock pistons and cylinders so I presume you are only changing pistons for performance reasons. Even without changing the cams I would be looking very carefully at the valves and springs. I think the installed height of the springs is the big problem affecting a lot of the FZRs causing valve float and dropped valves. All that I have measured have been loose
     
  17. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Well I don't mind the discussion just for fun, but I lost all interest in performance options for naturally aspirated engines, decades ago. They are nothing but a money pit and the law of diminishing returns makes it an exponential money pit. For this reason I agree with what Mike said, it is a can of worms. Having said that, Ruckusman and I have gone over this a lot and I think he has a fairly grounded view of it, basically just to give it some bottom end. For me, a Rotrex supercharger and Carrillo rods or leave it stock. In fact I planned out most of what I would like my R4-SC to be, but I don't think it will ever be more than an intellectual exercise.
     
  18. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    It's going to be a process to locate the restrictions.

    The overbore is based upon the bucket racer project of @gregt - he just turned up one day and said hey look what I've done - and all were amazed, really impressive work.

    Head left stock to begin but with all of the spring compressed length checked as per your discoveries, carbs are the first point of call for restriction, then I'll work through it

    Need to get the measurements to Grant for the sleeves first and assess the cost
     
  19. ajb0235

    ajb0235 Active Member

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    My first FZR250 3LN had valve issues from the outset. I stripped the head down and fitted new exhaust valves, and shimmed the valve clearances very carefully. It had been incorrectly shimmed by a previous owner and all the exhausts were sitting off the seat, which is why it wouldn't start.
    With everything sorted, Spring free length checked it went back together and became a very sweet motor, easy starter and very smooth up to 20k. Interesting to note the there was no measurable bore wear , at over 30000 Kilometers.
    Still looking for another engine in the UK for my fuel injection and turbo project, mega squirt ecu.
     
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