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Info Jetting up a MC22 for improved performance

Discussion in 'Honda 250cc In-line 4's' started by Damus, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Damus,
    You are starting with a flawed premise. That being "big jets = more power". There is an optimum air/fuel ratio. Adding more fuel will only make your bike more sluggish and destroy your engine faster. I select the main jet by starting with what I think will be rich and going down until the engine just stutters at wide open throttle (not in top gear) and then going back up one size, with no regard to what the standard jets are. In other words, I will use jets that are smaller than standard if that yields the best result. I am not suggesting that it is my way or the highway, it is just what I do and it is this technique that I used to tune racing machines that were winners.
    Here is a quote from a person with a similar view:
    "Everyone wants to put bigger jets in a carb because they have a hot rod and think more fuel equates to more power. The exact opposite is true. Lean is mean. The average carb is engineered on the rich side to save you, so fine tuning usually involves removing fuel from a motor, not adding it." Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0802phr-how-carburetors-work/#ixzz3fp6dOGNB

    Now that may be referring to a car engine but the principle remains the same.

    You need to understand that there is a pulse running back and forth through the inlet tract. The amount of fuel that can be drawn into the inlet tract is dependant on the pressure of that pulse and the jet opening size. If the engine was tuned to pump air more efficiently than before (air cleaner and muffler hardly qualify as tuning) then it can draw more fuel simply because of the greater negative pressure as a result of more air passing over the emulsion tube. If you can pass more air over that tube then it will draw more fuel by itself. It does not require you to put in bigger jets (think of a paint spray gun, it cannot spray much paint at 5psi). Consider that my FZR400 3TJ1 uses Mikuni BDST32 carburettors and the standard main jet sizes are smaller than an FZR250 3LN1. A Honda CBR600 F2 uses 102 and 110 main jets. Does your 250 produce more power than a CBR600? No, of course not.

    Other members are also trying to give you good advice based on their experience, including @Mclaren who has gone to the trouble of having some objective testing done. He used a dyno, something that I do not have access to, and has given you proven information. The changes that you are making, air cleaner element and muffler, are minuscule in terms of engine performance and I would expect that they may have a slight effect on the power curve but very little on total output. These four cylinder 250cc engines are already in a very high state of tune, 160bhp per litre in 1990 being a staggering amount of power. Any attempt to gain more is going to be hellishly expensive.

    cheers
    Blair
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
  2. Damus

    Damus She is a BEAST and riding it is comparable to sex Dirty Wheel Club

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    "You are starting with a flawed premise. That being "big jets = more power""

    I never said that "big jets = more power"

    What I said was "there is probably a little more thought that goes into it than "we will go up 1 size in jets until the hp does go up any further". There is clearly a science behind it that we should be able to discuss."

    Which is quite the opposite. And what I meant by the above was that a professional tuner wouldnt just dyno dyno dyno dyno dyno randomly trying to get the fuel air right.
     
  3. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Correct in perfect world u want it putting no more no less fuel the better the burn
     
  4. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    With carbs it can be 2 steps forward 20 back I know with mine I have a lean spot at 9k that can't be tuned out due to worn carbs such is with 25 plus year old bikes but I know that they dyno changed dyno changed sometimes going opposite ends to achieve the best total power curve
    For me the 9k spot is liveable as only at start I need to roll off to 90% throttle then go like the clappers at 100% but that was found with dyno runs playing with carbs throttle and also time of day humidity play a massive factor in tuning wat works in Brisbane can be way off base in Melbourne
     
  5. Damus

    Damus She is a BEAST and riding it is comparable to sex Dirty Wheel Club

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    I thought CV carbs had nothing to do with rev range?
     
  6. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    These posts imply that you believe that going up in jet size will yield more power.
    Once upon a time I raced my Ducati at Bathurst. I went down in main jet size from 155 to 145 after fitting the factory racing cams. This was done during practice (the jet changing not the cam fitting). Each time I went down my top speed increased. My top speed was clocked by radar at 146mph, not bad for a 1975 twin. I am sure that 140 would have been the correct size but I had no more testing time. The standard jets for that bike were 152. Why did it use smaller jets? Because the engine is a more efficient air pump at maximum rpm with those camshafts fitted. I can guarantee you that nine out of ten motorcycle owners would not even try smaller jets because of their mindset.
    Now it can be argued that Bathurst being some 600 metres above seal level may be the reason for the smaller jets, but the reality is that due to the much colder temperature, the air density was actually greater in Bathurst. I usually raced in Brisbane and when factoring in both the 9° difference in temperature and the elevation, the air density in Bathurst was approximately 1.179 kg/m³ vs 1.134 for Brisbane.
    cheers
     
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  7. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Sorry @MCiN7 for hijacking your thread.
     
  8. Damus

    Damus She is a BEAST and riding it is comparable to sex Dirty Wheel Club

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    Pretty much every carb calculator I have used and all research done keeps pointing to the same thing for me.
    The track that I will start bashing out the most is eastern creek which is somewhere between 50 and 100 meters above sea level, average temperature of about 25 degrees C.
    With a upgraded filter in air box and a non baffled unrestricted exhaust I keep getting results of 115+ mains, 40 pilots & 2 needle shims.
    Look we all know that when I go to get a dyno im gonna have 50hp and a perfect power curve, the true power comes from iridium spark plugs, you all know its true.
     
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  9. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Lol bloody plugs
    Much to many ppl belief u create more power (hp) in these little 250 with restricted pipe they love and need back pressure
     
  10. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    With the age of the bikes in question, the only way to get more power out of them is to rebuild them... new pistons & rings, head gaskets, valve clearances, cam chain, wheel & steering bearings, correct size chain & sprockets, clean existing or new std. size jets in the carbs, new exhaust gaskets etc. Whacking a new muffler on won't do much.

    You can't expect a 25 year old clapped out 250cc to make the same power as what the manufacturer claims it makes in its current condition.

    As for back pressure... well that's why the fizzers have EXUP :thumb_ups: I only changed the can for looks and sound.
     
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  11. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Mine got 43/44hp close enough to original
     
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  12. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    Yeah but its a Honda, totally unkillable :p No cam chain or tensioner to wear out, either.
     
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  13. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Very true
     
  14. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Cheers kiffsta:thumb_ups:
     
  15. XCite Bikes

    XCite Bikes Parts and Accessories Staff Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    A1 Road and Race in Arncliffe specialises on 250cc bikes, specially MC22.
     
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  16. Linkin

    Linkin The Mechanic Premium Member Contributing Member Dirty Wheel Club

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    I've seen their shop, my auntie lives around the corner. Had an RVF400 sitting out front.
     
  17. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Are you tuning the bike that gets no spark?

    Ups for the enthusiasm but reading this thread is a good laugh.
     
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  18. Damus

    Damus She is a BEAST and riding it is comparable to sex Dirty Wheel Club

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    You missed the news flash, I have spark again.
     
  19. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    I miss a lot of things (I have a life, I think...) what was the cause?
     
  20. Aufitt

    Aufitt Active Member

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