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New Member Newby- Electric conversion of Megelli 250r

Discussion in 'New Members Say Gday' started by ron berry, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. ron berry

    ron berry Member Premium Member

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    17 inch 8kW hub motor is 550 USD plus freight
    has 200mm dropouts
    10kW was 770 USD with the disc brake
    the controller would be a few hundred more

    the 17" hub at 2kW rating has interesting peak power and amperage values but 900rpm is a bit slow but at 2kW continuous and around 5kW 170Nm of torque for 5 second bursts is probably enough, not sure what the original spec for the infernal combustion engine was but the hub is thus;
    17inch 273 In-Wheel Hub Motor(28H) 2000W V2 Type


    17inch Hub Motor specially designed for electric scooters and electric motorcycle, the rated power can be made 2kw,3kw,4kw,5kw,6kw,7kw or 8kw. Max speed can be customized from 30-120KMPH.


    Motor Specification:

    1. Motor Type: BLDC Hub Motor with Permanent Magnets
    2. Motor design: Double axle out with 14inch Aluminium rim
    3. Rim size:3.5×17
    4. Matching Tire: 130/70-17
    5. Magnet Height: 28MM
    6. of Pole Pairs: 23 pairs
    7. Rated Power: 2000W
    8. Peak Power:5200W
    9. Rated Voltage: 72V( 48-96V Can be optional)
    10. Speed: 70km/h (30-75km/h can be customized)
    11. Max No-load RPM: 900RPM
    12. Max Torque: 170N.M
    13. Max Efficiency: 87%
    14. Continious current:30A
    15. Max current:80A
    16. Brake type: Disc brake
    17. Rear Fork width for installation: 200mm
    18. Winding Core material: Aluminium
    19. Cross Section of Phase wire: 8 mm2
    20. Hall sensor phasing angle: 120 degree
    21. Temperature Sensor: Optional
    22. Working Temperature: 70 degree, Peak 120 degree
    23. Waterproof Grade: IP54
    24. W./ G..W. : 20kgs / 21kgs
    25. Package Size: 44*43*34CM
    for a 4wd electric car with hub motors 32kW I think 108 PCD is a moke hub but they said they could make a custom PCD for it.
    4 units x QS 72v 8000w V3 Electric Car Hub Motor 4x108 PCD: USD580/PC
    4 units x Kelly Controller KLS7275H: USD280/PC
    1 unit x Pedal Throttle: USD50
    1 unit x Speed Meter: Free
    1 set x 1 tow 4 Disc Brake Assembly: USD95/PC
    Total: USD3585

    they also have a 10-12kW hub with curved magnets and other improvements now
     
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  2. TonyZXR

    TonyZXR Active Member Premium Member

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    170nm is some serious torque !
     
  3. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Not so much when it is direct hub drive, about 500N of force at the ground, and only at lower speeds (equal to a 250cc at 9:1 reduction, which is about top gear on the zxr or 4th on a twin or single). When the speed increases, the torque decreases, especially when the power drops back to 2kw: 90Nm at max speed and power, about 35Nm at 2kW. I don't think 2kW will do enough. Do you have a link for these motors @ron berry ? I'd be interested in looking at them myself.
     
  4. ron berry

    ron berry Member Premium Member

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    The 2kW motor can take 5 times the current for a few seconds if the controller can deliver it and the max non-continuous/peak power is 5.2kW. I think I would get bit higher powered motor anyway just for fun.

    The 12kW motor has 280mm dropouts which would suit me better but 350Nm is just ridiculous and might bend the 250 swing arm or somesuch chaos and I don't really need to smoke rubber just because my right hand twitched, the electric torque is pretty much instant. My friend built an electric bmx that could put out that much in short bursts and people came back bloody from their first ride even though they were warned about going easy on the throttle, scary crazy keen acceleration. I would be happy with around the same acceleration as my old RZ350 which is determined by the controller really as the motor has to dissapate the heat (most of the missing 12% in efficiency) but can do much more than the continuous rating.

    https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/prod...m=a2700.icbuShop.prewdfa4cf.17.46fb4fc9LCzlUQ

    http://www.qs-motor.com/product-catagory/motorcycle-wheel-motor/

    QS motor gave me the prices and said their curved magnet model (like the 12kW one on alibaba) is the better build apparently which is detailed in the new arrivals tab on the QS motor site but at the moment they are hand building the new models hence the extra cost over the other models up to 8000W which can be made to do 120kmph whereas the new ones do 140kmph which would be better headroom for overtaking safely.
    The V3 17 inch at 8000W (16kW peak!) needs 72V minimum which means the extra expense and weight of more batteries, the 5000W is 60V, just two more batteries, only the 4000W or less are compatible with my current 48V pack but good range would be good so I may get a couple more if I can and four more would be easy to fit in so 72V is do-able with these cells. Initially the motor was going to be on a chain and mounted in the frame so therefore less room for batteries there and more sprung weight which shouldn't be more than 20% over standard before having to upgrade suspension and braking for the engineer to pass it.
     
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  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    I think you're confusing rear wheel torque and engine torque. There is a primary reduction, transmission reduction and final drive reduction. Take for instance the reduction in a 4cyl zxr250: primary reduction of 3.291, final drive reduction of 3.428, overall reduction in TOP gear is 10.076 (255Nm at the rear, in TOP gear), 29.34 reduction in first gear (rear wheel torque of over 745Nm). Power is speed by force: the faster you go, the less torque you get. Electric motors don't magically make more power, they just have better gearboxes, so to speak. You're replacing an 18-24kW motor. The zxr is 34kW.
     
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  6. Andych

    Andych Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    BUT... the Electric hub motors torque is instantaneous.. that is why a Tesla can out accelerate a V8 Supercar over a standing 400 metres... plus there is no gearing at all.. it is all down to how sophisticated the controller is.
     
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  7. ron berry

    ron berry Member Premium Member

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    I think what shaneP is saying is the swingarm should easily withstand the torque of the 12kW motor and there would be no assymmetrical compression loading from a chain either so no worries. I might need the 6 inch rims and the fat tyre though to get much of that available torque to the ground, can one change the tyre size and still get rego?
    http://www.qs-motor.com/product/new-8000w-17inch-in-wheel-hub-motor-v4-with-6-0x17-rim/
    although I suspect top speed of 130 means top voltage of 120V which becomes too many of these batteries.

    An IGBT powered controller would be preferable to the kelly which runs multiple mosfet transistors and is less efficient or robust.
    Wondering when gallium arsenide transisitor technology is going to be built into a controller, do they have them in big amperage ones yet? Mostly only seen in 5g transmitters so far and I think the military tenderers responsible have laterally integrated production of them by now so remains to be seen if they find more exotic uses than EM weaponry.
     
  8. ron berry

    ron berry Member Premium Member

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    my RZ 350 motor was about 40Nm and about 44kW (60Hp) (not that I ever wanted to hit max torque in first) so to feel as fast I suspect the 12kW electric motor will be overkill and the 5000W torquey enough but the 120kmph top speed I will want so I will probably have to find extra batteries and put up with too much power or go back to chain drive.
     
  9. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    The only issue with the torque and swingarm is how the motor mounts. A chain drive causes force to act at the axle in the direction towards the pivot bolt. It is a compression force, not a bending moment, unless it is a banana swingarm. However, a hub drive mounted to the end of the swingarm creates a bending moment. If you stay the hub with a rod that attaches closer to the pivot bolt then you'll reduce the bending moment greatly (like a rear brake stay on the old sports bikes).
     
  10. ShaneP

    ShaneP Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Also, there is the issue of weight: increase of sprung mass vs unsprung mass.
     
  11. Andych

    Andych Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Same principle of the good old Tramp rods in leaf spring cars.. torque rods on Ladder bar suspensions etc.
    It all goes back to Isaac Newtons third law "for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction"...
     
  12. soyachips

    soyachips Member

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    Very interested to see how you go with this project. I’m in the early stages of doing a conversion as well and thinking along similar lines of using a hub motor. Some questions about your project that might help me with mine :)
    • My understanding is the axle is part of the hub motor which is fine for ebike conversions that have dropouts but most motorcycle swingarms I’ve seen have enclosed slots where the rear axle gets inserted through. Have you worked out how you’re going to get the axle in?
    • If you do cut open the slots to make them like dropouts will you need to reinforce them? I’ve seen lots of examples of ebikes adding extra plates, torque arms and c-washers to help prevent the axle from spinning. I think the bike I’m going to use has a box aluminium swingarm so I need to work out how to make that stronger, especially if I need to extend the axle slots to get it in!
    • QS Motors has a thread on Endless Sphere with lots of good info. Also members get some kind of discount which is a bonus! https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972&sid=96ced550fc6d82d230c917ac14842943
    • You probably know this already but you can customise the axle in the motor to suit your needs. I may need to do this to fit the motor and brake calliper bracket inside the swingarm as I’m not sure they will fit. Will need to check with them if it’s possible to go slightly less than 200mm.
    • Any concerns about increasing the unspring mass? I was thinking I might need to use a stiffer spring.
    • How did you go with the group buy with the AEVA? Not sure what the cost would be to ship the motor from you to Sydney but I might be interested if the cost and timing works out. Actually I haven’t worked out which motor to use yet, I may end up using one from Enertrac if I can’t fit the QS273 in my swing arm.
    • Did you look at the Enertrac motors? Any thoughts?
     
  13. ron berry

    ron berry Member Premium Member

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    I was wondering if the axles had a keyway orflat sections or not, I was planning on making spacers to fit the axle so as to line up the brakes and a square washer to fit in the chain adjuster channel which has fitted square plates, perhaps make a keyway in the washer and axle or make a torque arm and just work it out when I got to it.
    I see there are metal rectanglar sections protruding from the motor axle in some pics, I assumed they were fitted to a flattened section of axle to deal with the torque arm issue but I'm not sure. My swing arm is aluminium too and I had not considered if one dropout might be necessary to get it in. hmmm. I had hoped the axle would come out of the motor, it seems to have circlips in the photos which might mean yes.

    endless sphere has a Massive thread, I will mine that for info, nice pictures and all, great link, thanks.

    No replies from the aeva thread yet but I will bump it and see if it is just you and me interested in a group buy or if someone else is thinking the same way. I may yet go for a 48v motor and chain or pulley or even make a motor if opportunity doesn't decide for me, however I still think a group buy may be good for all, there may be four to eight car hub motors on the pallet so far for interested people which will help get to optimal freight.

    I was hoping to have them made with bolt holes for the gearbox end of the CV joint to leave the unsprung weight standard for the car conversion, one plus for keeping the chain in the motorbike. Nice to find they can possibly cutomise the axle. I toyed with the idea of a shaft drive bike but it doesn't seem particularly easier. Belt drive would be preferable for me. Overclocker motors for electric model aircraft can be super compact and light so a few of the larger ones (nearly 3kW each) could do as well and maybe mount on a toothed belt along the swingarm closer to the pivot and operate at a decent reduction ratio given the size of pulley one cold run on the back sprocket then multiple smaller and cheaper hobby "esc" controllers could be used and slaved from one throttle. The cheapest option still looks like the Q motor hub though. I drive to Sydney every so often to see family so I could drop it off or get it from there.

    I did look at enertrac and saw they could do a 17 inch rim and the dual motor liquid cooled 20kW option was interesting(!) but I was after low voltage options at the time and suspected equivalent chinese motors might exist for less, it is also higher voltage meaning even more batteries for me (range would be good though) and very probably overkill power wise too. I liked the solid wheels but spoked would do. 1295 US is a bit though and still made in China I suspect as only "overseas partner" is mentioned.
     
  14. soyachips

    soyachips Member

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    I think you're right, those metal rectangular sections look like they fit over axle flats to act like a torque arm. I was thinking of replacing the existing chain adjusters that slide into the swingarm ends with something more solid to act as torque arms. Just need to make them strong in the right direction (but not too heavy) and long enough to resist the torque. Could also use them to somehow make the swingarm ends strong again after making the dropouts to get the motor in.
     
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  15. Spanner253

    Spanner253 Member

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    Hey Ron, awesome to see someone doing the electric conversion. I would be very interested to see how your project turns out. Have you sourced the parts individually or picked all up as a going concern? Wondering where the Nissan leaf batts came from and rough pricing on controller, batts etc. Was looking to do a 72 volt system myself. Would like to see what sort of range and power you end up getting. Best of luck with it electric motovlog on you tube is worth a look, even builds his own 100% isolated charge controller modules and has a nice bike.
     
  16. my67xr

    my67xr Bike Enthusiast Staff Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    U Pull It Gilman seem to alway's have battery bank's from Toyota Prius or similar hybrid/electric car's, think they sell them for about $900 if that's any help
    I reckon i have seen some for $600 too
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  17. ron berry

    ron berry Member Premium Member

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    I have been holed up in hospital after smashing my foot in a head on collision with an asleep driver, glad I was driving my 30 y.o. Mercedes which has a high tensile steel body or I would have probably died. The impact was incomprehensible at 100kmph V's 120 or so and I thought my life was over. I hope to be back out in about 8-12 weeks. I have a frankenstein style foot now with a skin graft and 6 broken bones but very grateful to not be a lot worse off. Glad my friends and family didn't have to go to my funeral, yet.
    I got the leaf batteries from America from a wrecked car and did a group buy via the AEVA with the help of Greame from Suzi Auto in Springwood QLD who organised the shipping and imports EV kits and builds EV's mostly in Suzuki swifts. He was the president of the Brisbane AEVA branch for a while, he is also an agent for the Battrium battery managment systems I used for my elecric car projects and a super lovely guy. The leaf batteries were extras from a couple of packs I put together for three cars. I was inspired enough by this guy Axel Borg
    http://www.evalbum.com/3318
    to buy his book on building an axial flux motor and may well go that way just for kicks. I will probably have to up the voltage so will be on the lookout for more cells myself too. Greame said the new chinese LiFePO4 cells are better value than 2nd hand leaf cells (at about $160 each with shipping) now as the production is incrementally improving all the time. I would sugest buying the batteries at the end of the build as the price, lifetime and energy density keep getting better.
    Controller wise I have used an IGBT based build by EPC corporation so far which is an improvement on the Mosfet based Curtis etc. controllers of the past. There are a plethora of options from China and the hub motors come with Curtis controllers which are pretty standard. Axel used one hobby ESC (from electric model aircraft) per winding to power his motor which is a good way to save some money as lower power means much cheaper and I like the idea especially as you could program it to drop out some of the coils at high speed for better efficiency or get home in limp mode if your range anxiety rises. I want to find a suitable hallbach array magnet set and use Litz wire and more carbon fibre to see how good the motor could get with the right tweaks.
     
  18. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew Contributing Member

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    Glad to know your ok Ron. Rest up and get back to good health.
    This project is looking to get better all the time. Keep at it (when your well again).
     
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  19. Frankster

    Frankster See the World before you leave it Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew

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    Glad you're still with us Ron. Hopefully, your recovery is swift and as pain-free as possible.
     
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  20. soyachips

    soyachips Member

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    Hey Ron, shocked to hear about your accident and lucky you weren’t in one of those electric Suzuki Swift conversions!!! Hope you’re recovery is going well. I’ve been making progress with my project so will start up a new thread here to keep track of the build. Sorry I didn’t get back to you to organise a group purchase, I ended up getting a custom axle made for a 6kW motor which they’ve just finished assembling so it should be arriving in the next week or two. Will let you know when I get the new thread up. Take care!
     

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