1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Project The Yamaha R4 (Glacially Slow Project)

Discussion in 'Other Projects - Other Bikes (non 250's)' started by maelstrom, Dec 20, 2014.

  1. Murdo

    Murdo The Good Doctor Staff Member Premium Member Ride and Events Crew Contributing Member

    Messages:
    5,747
    Likes Received:
    4,341
    Trophy Points:
    1,148
    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Tamworth, NSW
    My Bike:
    1938 Royal Enfield 250, CF Moto 250 V5, Honda's XL250, CBR250, VT250F2, FT500 plus a few others.
    Pretty similar to mine. Suggest you put the angles on the floor to the outside of the frame to prevent you tripping on them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    That would be an improvement. I just copied the pics that I have seen but mine is a bit narrower I think because I made it from one 6 metre length.
     
  3. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    Decided I wasn't happy with the main bearing restrictors. If they work loose they can just fall into the lower gallery and that would be the the end of the engine. My solution was to turn down a couple of ultra low head cap screws.
    MainBearing_Restrictor_03.jpg
    Left to right, OEM restrictor, ULH cap screw, drilled & narrowed.
    MainBearing_Restrictor_04.jpg
    and here it is fitted. That will work for me.
     
    • Nice Work Nice Work x 4
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  4. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    It's Alive!
    Just need a nice oil bottle and cable tie the hoses up to it, but I wanted to make sure the ram was working first.
    BlairPress_02_small.jpg BlairPress_01_small.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    • Nice Work Nice Work x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  5. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    Finally scored the race kit manual that has the jetting specs for the FCR's from Japanese auction site. Been watching since I bought the carbs.
    RaceKitManulaSugo.png
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Nice Work Nice Work x 1
  6. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Now that is definitely going to take all of the guesswork out of it, that was one of the excuses I used to dissuade myself from buying a set of FCR's, that and the stratospheric price, but as we all know, sometimes stratospheric prices are sly encouragement, they beckon us like sirens, promises of performance unleashed and expectations exceeded - but I wax too lyrical

    Good score
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    FCR's are expensive but always in high demand. If you do need to sell them you are most likely to at least get your money back. I think with some of the tuning guides that are out there, https://litetek.co/docs/Flatslide_Tuning_Guide.pdf, and an AFR gauge it wouldn't be too hard to sort them out.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Let's see how I go with re-racking the MC22 carbs first and @kiffta very generously gifted me a set which had been cleaned with all new seals because I broke the cable spool butterfly end attempting to free a stuck butterfly on the set which I purchased to monkey with

    I've also got a set of ZXR250 carbs to play with but agree with @kiffsta that the MC22 carbs are far superior in all respects
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    Now where were we? Ah yes, the gearbox.
    The countershaft on the input side runs a needle roller directly on the shaft. What a **** idea. FZR250's don't have this problem. They run a full set of deep groove ball bearings, but they do have the problem of the stupid countershaft output bearing. More on that later. So here is mine, not good. Although most of that is not on the roller surface. Anyway I picked up a used box for a song.
    DamagedBearingJournal.jpg
    Sent it off to a company in Bangkok to have it Superfinished (here is an article about the process https://www.vibratoryfinishing.co.uk/superfinishing/superbike-gears-polishing.html). The owner is an Aussie and gave me a good price. Shaft end looks like this now.
    New Shaft.jpg
    Also got a complete set of new bearings, circlips and thrust washers.
    FitCirclips_02.jpg
    When you fit the thrust washers, which are stamped, fit the chamfered side to the gear and the flat side to the circlip. Rotate the circlip in its groove so it has full contact with every groove in the spline. In other words, the gap does not span a spline.
    CounterShaftSmall.jpg
    Assembled countershaft, now to do the mainshaft.
    Note that you can't do any of this on an FZR400 or 250 without a press.
     
    • Nice Work Nice Work x 3
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  10. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    OK, so I know this process gets used to reduce frictional losses throughout an engine - the racers tend to be thorough, they try everything, then ditch the hocum if it just add $$ with no demonstrable benefit. Fairly certain this process has taken hold.

    Given that there have been incremental improvements throughout engines in reducing parasitic losses, specifically the sports bikes to remain competitive...
    Does anyone know if steps such as these are being employed on contemporary engine components as part of the package of changes which see the overall improvements we've been witnessing through the years?

    I remember the Dave Moss build, and he didn't attack the ports and go for huge valves, Mike Norman paid a significant amount of attention specifically to details such as this to reduce the parasitic losses
     
  11. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    I think a lot of factories are using DLC coatings on cams now. The new Honda Fireblade has that as I recall.
    I just figured the gearbox has to munch up some power and there is a lot of gear contact going on all the time. On a 1000 banging out 200hp are you going to notice it? I seriously doubt it. On a 250 4 cylinder, yep I think so, so why not do it in my 400. I am happy with it, and I had a long chat with the company owner. The head branch is in Aus and they opened a plant here but weren't happy with the result, so this guy bought it from them and stayed here. At the very least I am sure it will help preserve those shaft ends that run on the needle rollers.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Where are they using the DLC coatings on the cams? On the lobes or the bearing surfaces?

    Interesting development because we've got the Nikasil on cylinders reducing friction running against hypereutectic pistons which are inherently harder with the silicon content, which was what started me reading about the Hypereutectic cylinders - fairly certain Yamaha wouldn't have developed their version just for reduced cost if performance was going to take a hit as a result
     
  13. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1

    OK so I answered my own question here: https://www.mcnews.com.au/2020-honda-cbr1000rr-fireblade-217-hp/

    What is interesting is at one Drag Race meet, a full set of the Top Fuel pistons was out and on display and they were as black as these cams - I always ask the guys questions whenever they have a little time to spare to chat and I must say that many of them appreciate the interest when you can see the amount of work that goes into it - they're not playing secret squirrel
     
  14. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    That new SP Honda is definitely the business. I like that the Japanese are bringing back real SP models. If you go back though my posts here you will see that I bought a set of new gudgeon pins from Partzilla in the US and had them shipped to a company in the US for DLC coating before sending to me.
     
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  15. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Yes it seems obvious at this point that incredibly hard surfaces against one another provide the best friction co-efficients and it reminds me of some reading that I did into the Jewels, (rubies) 'claims' behind traditional watch mechanisms which used lubrication free low friction surfaces for the various parts of the mechanism.

    Interesting the SP model uses Titanium rods with the outer edges of the rod big end having a DLC coating
     
  16. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    As I recall the tribological properties relate more to the crystal structure of the materials involved. I could be completely wrong of course. Hard and soft are often used together. Titanium galls just by looking at it. DLC is one of the most popular anti-galling processes for it, and TiN has been used a lot for titanium caliper pistons.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. gregt

    gregt Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    140
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hororata NZ
    My Bike:
    many and varied
    Ti doesn't run well against anything. It has to be coated to avoid galling. Someone must have offered Honda a good deal on the machinery involved in DLC coating, they're using it more now. Used to be only on HRC origin stuff, now on road engines.
    The RC30 rods have an early anti-friction coating which apparently can't be renewed. Lucky the ones I had here were all mint.

    Super-hard against super-hard can still throw up some incompatabilities. There are instances where one surface won't retain a lube film - but we shouldn't see them as the factories ought to know them/

    I hadn't looked at this project before. Interesting. The needle roller on shaft situation is only a problem when oil changing has been neglected in my experience. I've seen a lot of big HP high load engines that are fine with this setup.

    I had an FZR400 customer back in the day who had Jap contacts. Sourced a lot of racekit stuff. Cams, pistons, rods, c/r gears - and that manual. Use it only as a guide - not gospel.

    FCR's. I have the jetting specs for 33's on a FZR600 if anyone needs them.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  18. ruckusman

    ruckusman White Mans Magic Master Premium Member Dirty Wheel Club

    Messages:
    2,369
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Narrabeen, NSW Australia
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR250 3LN1
    Crtsyal structure is part of it for sure, but thinking on more recent developments like Nikasil, SiN hybrid and full SiN bearings and the hypereutectic cylinders that Yamaha is using - those are especially clever because of the polish/etch process which rebates the aluminium and leaves silicon protruding, no hone marks and it's oleophilic to retain a film and the Diamond like Carbon coating must have the correct oil retention properties for it to be used in the places it's appearing.

    Another instance is Teflon, apparently the electrical characteristic of the molecule AND the long chain is what gives it that great friction co-efficient. It just doesn't want to interact with surfaces coming into contact with it, so it differs from the above, also it's softness limits potential applications
     
  19. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    Good to know.
     
  20. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    4,203
    Likes Received:
    2,764
    Trophy Points:
    923
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thailand
    Home Page:
    My Bike:
    Yamaha FZR400 3TJ1, Honda MC22
    So the gearbox is finished and ready to go. New bearings, thrust washers, circlips, seals and Superfinished. I mock fitted the cases together today to check all the bolts. Some are a bit stiff so I will tidy that up and try again. I sent a couple of hose/cable brackets away with the Honda stuff to be nickel plated. When it comes back I will bolt the cases together. OMG the engine in the Yamaha is going to be a shock to the system.
    S__3072007.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Looks good! Looks good! x 2

Share This Page