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Still trying to get the bandit going...

Discussion in 'Suzuki 250cc In-line 4's' started by Joker, Mar 14, 2014.

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  1. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Scratch that last question heh, ended up diving in and removing the camshafts anyway. This exposed several more bolts which (cross referencing the B4 manual) are for the cylinder head removal.

    Problem is now my tools don't fit in the holes to these nuts/bolts... Guess it's a good excuse to get that new socket set I really need! :dance2:

    DSC01228.JPG
     
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    Joker, Apr 22, 2014
    #41
  2. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    (as a backup in case I can't fix this at a reasonable price) Anyone reckon a B4 motor would fit in this frame? surely they would be a similar size...? A running 250 engine may just be a bit hard to come by from what I can see...
     
    Joker, Apr 22, 2014
    #42
  3. Simon

    Simon Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Stu just seen your thread here..i'll start by saying this knowledge is based on the gsxr 250's (same engine minus lumpier carbs and a bit of ignition advance). They WILL start first turn of the key with a dry compression test (cold) of 100,100,100,90. I agree if you want horsepower you need compression but the engines have so little internal friction they will run at 50 pc less than the specs that Suzuki call a 'service limit'. Those compression readings aren't good, but will let it fire run and be able to use on an every day basis..new rings a good idea but i'd say get it running first. These are the checks and in this order ( i'm sure u've already done it all but each will rule out something different):

    1)Charge battery
    2)Do compression check - make sure throttle is held fully open (do not do this on a closed throttle), crank engine noting how many times it turns over until compression builds to full pressure ie rises no more. If you struggle to hear it fire as per video..then count the number of seconds until it reaches full compression. Note this down for cylinders 1 through four and the seconds or turns it takes for each. Email me back.
    3)Dependent on above you have three things to check and three separate tests to run each in order..

    Again..and make sure you read this all first..
    1) Charge battery
    2) Make sure plugs are clean..remove and if you cant clean the internals of the electrode ( either cr8e or cr9e plugs deeply recessed) then put them over a flame for 30-60 secs to dry them out after cleaning with carb cleaner- hold the plug cap end in a pair of pliers so as not to burn yourself through heat conduction. Do this quickly and get them back in the engine still warm.
    3) Apply full choke..and crank engine and see if it tries to fire..if not within the first 5-8 seconds then squirt atomised fuel ( ie get a window cleaner bottle filled with fuel) directly into the air filter inlet..this is important..you want a spray not a squirt ie atomised fuel. Email me back.

    Again..and make sure you read all this first..

    1) Ensure all of the above is done up until stage 2)
    2) Wind in pilot screws all the way in and then back out exactly one turn. If unsure email me.
    3) Repeat 3) above ie full choke..and crank etc etc..Failure of above send me pictures of both coils and input wires x2 on each and a clear indication of their colour. Next whip plugs out and look at 1 and 4 cylinders and whip of the right hand ( looking from above sat on the bike) crank cover off( this is your timing reference lol). Make sure when at the top of their stroke that the marks line up as per the diagram i'll post on here tmoz..

    If we get this far and your leads, caps and coils are good (ie as per jumping from plug to block described earlier) then change your cdi..my only worry is not knowing the history of your engine if someone has already mistimed it then valve damage will have occurred but your compression readings are so consistent I suspect coil breakdown or a malfunctioning cdi in the event the above doesn't yield results..got everything crossed for you m8!

    Speak soon and i'll post you the timing diagram tmoz..in any of the above if the engine turns faster slower or tries to fire then note the circumstances and analyse why..all engines are just air pumps and relatively simple as a result!!

    Good luck!
     
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    Simon, Apr 24, 2014
    #43
  4. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Hey mate, thanks for the thoughts. Hopefully my response doesn't sound negative but it's been a haul to get where I am now and I think there's probably more information that will influence your opinion at bit.

    It definitely does not run off the key with those compression readings. Believe me, I've tried everything. I even had a mate look at it (who is unofficially a mechanic - he has rebuilt so many cars/bikes he may as well be) and what it came down to is that the starter motor isn't spinning the crank fast enough to get it going on its own. But there is nothing wrong with the starter motor or circuit - so compression is the main factor as to why.

    On a push start it did run, but it was blowing quite a bit of grey/blue smoke suggesting the rings are leaking somewhere. So although I agree the "use limit" does not stop the engine running, it is how you get the engine running that this is most likely related to. I believe the "use limit" may apply to the rest of the bike's ability to get the engine running at a certain compression level, but it doesn't stop the engine running as I can obviously push start it. So adjusting the carbies wasn't really needed as it ran as well as can be expected on the push start.

    The battery is brand new, and fully charged. I've been recharging it each time after I've cranked it. Plugs are brand new. I don't think cleaning them will make a significant difference as they have good spark (nice and blue) just the way they are. I have applied full choke, half choke - pretty much every combination you can think of when cranking and it doesn't start on its own. Atomised fuel is better I agree, but fuel is flammable enough that at a couple of drops it should ignite.

    Honestly I've been through everything you've suggested and it still doesn't go without a push. And I know there's nothing wrong with the CDI because the spark fires at the correct timing and the timing is good (as it runs from a push start too, we rode it for about a km at the time so no issues there).

    So ultimately I have concluded I need to do a bottom end rebuild, or at least look at the rings to see what is going on. I'm 2/3 of the way down and just about to pull the cylinders off. It could also be leaking a bit at the valves but I think the main culprit would be the rings (or the pistons if the rings are fine). I suppose I've got this far so I'll keep digging until I can have a good look and let you know.

    I really do appreciate the insights though, hopefully it won't be too much of a challenge to finish what I started :)
     
    Joker, Apr 24, 2014
    #44
  5. Simon

    Simon Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    You'll get there mate :)..my original engine had the compression readings I mentioned earlier 100,100,100, and 90 and started first turn of the key..the rebuilt ones are both more than double that but u could of ridden the old one no problems..i did for six months on and off and the only thing i needed to do was switch to hotter plugs to burn off the excess oil..off what you say and a bit more info now..check both intake and exhaust camshaft timing..if it ran off a push even if not well..likely low compression but to get so low as to not start your talking in the 40-50psi range from calculation..and yours are double that..if your sure that this is compression related ie rings then pour half a teaspoonful of oil down each bore spark plugs removed..replace spark plugs and compression will be not far off new and it will start instantly until the oil burns off..(15-20 seconds)..if no result then timing ie exhaust valves are open with inlet and compression going out that way together with the fuel air mix..poss on that other thread to do a leak down test to see exactly where but rather than spend i'll get you your timing references you need asap as the majority of it is easy once the cam cover and/or spark plugs are removed..you will get there don't despair!!!!
     
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    Simon, Apr 24, 2014
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  6. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Yes I completely understand what you're saying - as the logic is correct but mine just would not do what you are saying. I didn't put oil in then try and start it though, I just did the wet test and the difference was quite huge across all cylinders. I had a look at the timing and it looked OK based on what I knew, but I don't have much to reference apart from the Bandit 400 manual and some other bits and pieces.

    So now I'm at the stage where the cylinder head is off and the pistons are out. This is where I enter unknown territory a bit...

    WP_20140424_10_03_19_Smart.jpg WP_20140424_10_03_35_Smart.jpg WP_20140424_10_45_33_Smart.jpg WP_20140424_10_45_54_Smart.jpg WP_20140424_10_46_08_Smart.jpg

    I need to borrow a digital caliper now to check the ring gaps etc, the pistons (apart from being carbonated on the heads) look in alright condition. A little scoring on the sides but nothing significant I don't think. I haven't taken the cylinders off completely I've just propped them up for the moment otherwise I have to remove the whole engine from the frame which I wanted to avoid doing. Any one know how I would safely clean/polish these pistons up a bit? Also the ring specs... if I can get those Simon that would be awesome. Who knows, maybe the rings are OK but before I invest I want to make sure they're bad!

    The other thing is this grinding noise from the clutch. So I started to take the clutch apart to have a look... honestly though nothing looks abnormal to me - but not sure what else to check...? The grinding/clicking noise is in a video I posted on page 2 of this thread...

    WP_20140423_16_07_46_Smart.jpg WP_20140423_16_08_12_Smart.jpg WP_20140423_16_18_11_Smart.jpg

    As always, appreciate the love guys. Will keep trying to pay it back as we go :)
     
    Joker, Apr 24, 2014
    #46
  7. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Umm.. is this an acceptable way to do it? I was hesitant to use anything that could damage the piston (anything mechanical could do this...?) I did read somewhere about using brass bristles only though to avoid the damage.

     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    Joker, Apr 24, 2014
    #47
  8. risky

    risky risky

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    that is what i was shown 50 years ago.however do not use the bench grinder wire brush on the thrust faces of the pistons as it removes some alloy and you will get piston slap.
     
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    risky, Apr 24, 2014
    #48
  9. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    For what it is worth this is what I would do.
    1/ Remove the engine from the motorcycle.
    2/ Soak pistons in first in solvent. Then the tops can be cleaned with a blade to remove any thick carbon and then a bit of wet and dry or a wire brush. If the ring lands are particularly filthy ultrasonic cleaning would probably be the optimum choice. I would not use an old ring to scrape ring lands.
    3/ Rings land clearance needs to be accurately checked (with new rings of course) all the way around the circumference. If beyond tolerance then you need new pistons.
    4/ Pistons need to be measured with a micrometer. Sorry, but a vernier calliper digital or otherwise, is fine for measuring odd bits and pieces but not pistons. Even a Mitutoyo is only certified to +/- 0.02mm
    5/ Bores need to be measured with a dial bore gauge for taper and ovality. If acceptable they can be deglazed with a flex-hone. If not then you have the nightmare of finding someone who can actually bore and hone cylinders. The chances of your local machine shop being able to do this are next to zero. Before I would let anyone perform this operation I would arrive at their shop with said instruments and check various samples of their work and ensure that the honed finish is fine enough to enable a fast break in and establish a good seal. I do not believe in "running-in" a motorcycle engine.
    6/ Conrod small end and big end clearance should be checked.
    7/ Cylinder head and valves should be decoked and guides measured for wear.
    8/ Valves seated
    Reassemble -new seals, gaskets etc etc
    cheers
    Blair
     
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    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    maelstrom, Apr 24, 2014
    #49
  10. risky

    risky risky

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    blair,s answer is the correct way.just may be too expensive.
     
    risky, Apr 24, 2014
    #50
  11. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Stu go down to any tool shop if u have a trade tools in Mel go there and get vernier a should be no more than 50/60 bucks cheap ones ok I have mits but they 150+ also grab a set of mic the always handy my Sid chrome ones are cheap I paid 100 and use all the time
     
    Mclaren, Apr 24, 2014
    #51
  12. Simon

    Simon Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Stu..sos in coming back to you so late on in the day mate..these are the correct (Suzuki supplied) details you require..I've shortcut the pdf thing until the weekend for the full upload of the workshop manual but this is the timing and ring stuff you require..took them on my phone but here's hoping they look ok..I'll send you the ring specs hard copy (ie copied exactly) word for word in a tick as they mightn't be clear in the photo's..also a few in there of your clutch for good measure..best way of cleaning ur pistons is retainer rings out (which u've done lol)..pistons out (done :)) solvent dip for three days..clean..same again three days..piston ring lands with soft plastic scraper..final solvent dip and they will be as new..and don't worry so long as what ur using to clean them is 'softer' than the chromium alloy there made of u'll be fine..make sure you check the tolerances though.. the engine as a whole relies on tight clearances more than most..also if this is your first rebuild/top end job on one of these make 100pc sure when you slide the 'block' back over the pistons on reassembly you insert pistons 1 and 4 into the bores first..then rotate the crank (clockwise) until all pistons are equal height with 2 and 3 going up and 1-4 coming down..you'll see what I mean when you do it..if you've got a trusty mate at that stage then call in that long overdue favour!!
     

    Attached Files:

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    Simon, Apr 25, 2014
    #52
  13. Simon

    Simon Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Stu,

    Piston specs and rings as follows mate..

    This is for 73a and 74a chassis prefixes...

    Valve stem run out: 0.05mm (0.002 in)
    Valve head radial run out: 0.03mm (0.001in)
    Valve face wear: 0.5mm (0.02in)
    Valve stem clearance: 0.35mm (0.014in)

    Valve spring 'free length': 38.3mm (1.51in)

    Cylinder head warpage limit (distortion) across all planes: 0.20mm (0.008in)

    Bore: Maximum of 49.07mm, (GSXR 250RR SP -73a)
    All other models 49.09mm (GJ73a and 74a frame prefix)

    Piston Diameter: 48.90mm (GSXR 250rr SP 73a)
    All other models 48.88mm

    Piston Cylinder clearance: 0.11mm (GSXR 250 rr SP 73a)
    All other models 0.12mm

    Piston ring grove clearance:: 1st 0.180mm (0.0071in) ALL
    2nd 0.150mm (0.0059 in) ALL

    Piston ring thickness: 0.77-0.79mm ALL
    (0.030-0.031)

    Ring Gap (that's the end gap measurement I think your looking for mate):
    #1 and #2 rings: 0.70 mm ALL (0.028 in)

    ********Ring Colour code: Std blue
    : +0.5mm o/s red
    : +1.0mm o/s yellow

    If your bores are even remotely worn then go for o/s + 0.5mm but with standard pistons if their otherwise unmarked (no scorching or 'hotspots')..the engine will run tight initially but will free up and give maximum compression within about 500 miles..run in gently for first 50 or so but go hard after that..if the pistons are worse then consider a rebore with pistons and rings but i'd be surprised if you'd need to as unless your mileage is 50k plus then the rings will of worn but the bores will be perfectly good!!! Any more info you need let us know buddy..will sort the manual upload come weekend and if poss can you get the administrator site moderator to put it up on the 'manuals' section as it may help more of us to keep and get these 250's back on the road!!!!!
     
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    Simon, Apr 25, 2014
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  14. Simon

    Simon Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Simon, Apr 27, 2014
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  15. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Thanks for all the help mate, its gold. At the moment I'm just cleaning up the pistons and will check at work if we have some tools I can borrow to measure everything up properly before I order the rings. Was thinking the same thing, going oversized if the bore is bad but I can't see how it is. Bike's only done 30k and the pistons aren't really scored. They're cleaning up pretty easily with a product I have used for ages (a bit like Jif) called creme cleanser by Dominant. With a soft kitchen scourer it seems to bring the up pretty good.

    I can upload the manual so if you get it all up let me know, drop me an inbox and I'll show you how to send it via a large file transfer system direct to my email. That would be sweet.

    I'll keep plugging in the background, have to free up some more cash and time to continue from here and I have a small car issue to fix so I'll keep ya posted :)
     
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    Joker, Apr 27, 2014
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  16. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    Well...... Dropped the engine out today, relatively unscathed apart from a screw that fell into the sump (don't I like creating more work for myself?). Cylinder heads are off and honestly I'm a bit surprised. It looked pretty good. In each cylinder seems to be a couple of light browny patches but they're not scored - perhaps some very light surface scratches but nothing I'd consider bad. The carby intake is full of carbon though - that will definitely need a cleanout. I'm toying with the need to measure the cylinders up or not... it seems like a lot of hassle - I think I should just throw standard size rings in. I can't see how I would need oversized ones. Or am I over simplifying something that is supposed to be more complicated than I think?

    WP_20140503_19_53_44_Smart.jpg WP_20140503_19_54_30_Smart.jpg WP_20140503_19_55_45_Smart.jpg
     
    Joker, May 3, 2014
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  17. maelstrom

    maelstrom LiteTek Staff Member Premium Member 250cc Vendor Contributing Member

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    Hi Stu,
    Oversized rings are made for oversized pistons. Don't go there.
    You have come this far it is best to finish the job correctly.
    A much cheaper option to the dial bore gauge that I recommended in a previous post would be to use a telescopic gauge. That will give you good accuracy at a low price. I can get Mitutoyo instruments at really low prices if you are interested, or just find a friend who has some and can measure the bores and pistons for you. Failing that, your local machine shop will not charge you much for that task just ensure that you specify where you want the measurements to be taken; that information is in the workshop manual.
    cheers
    Blair
     
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    maelstrom, May 3, 2014
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  18. Mclaren

    Mclaren Well-Known Member Contributing Member

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    Shame u in melb I could have measured for u mate any helpful engine rebuilder or little machine shop should do it for nothing it take all of 5 minutes
     
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    Mclaren, May 4, 2014
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  19. Simon

    Simon Well-Known Member Premium Member Contributing Member

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    Stu here's hoping your looking at that engine and sorting its problems out as we speak!!!! Only joking m8..I sympathise with you in that all looks ok..Blairs totally right in saying finish the job correctly..if money's no object I'd measure and do the same..then settle on your existing pistons and a new std size ring set..reassamble and hope for the best..but you took the engine out to get to the root of the problem..either or the bore size is incompatible with the current ring size or rebore new pistons o/s and o/s rings to boot but cheapest I could source them is about £400 plus the cost of the rebore..not sure if you can get them in aus but I'd say it makes more sense to bolt in a new engine sourced from a breakers yard if that's what you decide to go for..

    I've looked at your thread again..and again..what bugs me is that looking at the bores and your description of them..whats really the problem..its not the bores..therefore unlikely to be the pistons (no scorch marks though if you can send me photo's of each prior to cleaning you can tell blow by (ie lost compression from rings one through two from the top of the piston down) a mile off..check the ring size of the old against new first (std size rings) if that's the route you go down..and before you reassemble..this will save another tear down later down the line..might actually have a set of std compression rings which you can have to check your old ones vs new so send me your address and i'll mail them out foc..you need to establish a known 'good base' to work from..those bores would benefit from not much..likely your pistons too..and I cant say for sure but ur rings wont show discernable wear before 40 k miles or 60k km..they'll still be within service limits..something doesn't add up..whatever you decide and having spent countless hours I wouldn't go with a rebuild with just rings on a hope and pray basis..all looks good to me..not an expert but I've done at least eight or nine of these engines..and yours should be fine at that mileage and the pictures and your experiences back that up..

    Anything I can do then let us know..cheers m8,

    Si


    Wish I could be of more help at this stage m8 but without being there
     
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    Simon, May 5, 2014
    #59
  20. Joker

    Joker See "about me" for contact details. Contributing Member

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    All good mate I appreciate the insight.

    Bottom line is I don't want to throw much more $ at it. It's just not worth it. So I've essentially decided to get some new ring sets from china, put her back together and see where we get to. I also really need to clean up all the valves too, it's pretty carboned up around there so it may be a contributing factor. Can always look at clearances later once I do another compression check and see where we are at.

    I get what you're saying though mate - it's been a bit puzzling to me too but the low compression is the thing standing out. It runs on all 4 on a push so everything else must be at least serviceable, which means no major issues just tuning required.

    The next thing I need to ensure I get right is the engine timing. Bit nervous on that. Apart from marking it up and doing my best to ensure it goes back together correctly, that's one that can't be compromised.
     
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    Joker, May 7, 2014
    #60
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